Headway made

[Jim Lapenta]

Except for a pool session or two I only dive with a long hose and have had a couple OW students go for it right out of class. It is not a liablility in OW recreational diving in any way I can see. I'd rather have 7 feet of hose if some dip runs out of air and is not calm enough to signal it. I do not want them grabbing me and taking me with them. The long hose gives me a chance to get them under some kind of control and then separate enough to allow for a nice calm, controlled, ascent and if they should take off they will be doing it without a reg once they get to the end of that hose.

An OOA diver should not be panicking in the first place if a good, well trained, buddy is nearby. They signal, the octo is donated, they make sure everything is ok and they ascend. That's the whole point of doing OOA drills, swims, and ascents in the pool until it becomes second nature to react calmly before going to OW. That is the way I was trained in my PADI OW class. We did buddy breathing and swims to a donor after dropping the reg. I do them in my class.

I have a rescue class of 8 students tomorrow and I'll bet at least three of us are diving long hose and BPW. Some will have AIR II type devices. No one will have the same configuration and every one will drill with all the different types of set ups as a buddy. Air sharing swims to prolong a tank are much nicer when you can be at arms length from a buddy.

Long hose is not just for cave and wreck. That was another factor in me leaving my original instructor. He said the same BS about them. As a result he took too long getting me the 7ft hose I wanted. So when he did get it in I already had one. And two sets of doubles, 4 more regs, a stage bottle, and two BPW set ups. He lost all those sales because of his uniformed, narrow minded views.

 

[randytay]

As another poster mentioned, OOA incidents are pretty rare. I have, on several occasions, shared air to extend a dive. It's really not as difficult as you make it sound. Maybe some drills would be in order?

I have, thats why I preferred the long hose. Contrary to what you think, I did both. Remember, I started with a short hose just like the majority and now am doing it for my current course. It may not be as difficult as "it sounds", but it sure as hell is more difficult than a long hose even with an experienced diver.

Unless it's truly an equipment failure such as a regulator stuck closed, which is extremely rare, I say he already did something very stupid by running out of air. Until it's demonstrated that the diver was fault-free, he's the last person I would trust to remain smart.

Why do you think I opted the "kool aid" route of diving? Hint: so we can agree on certain very important issues like RB; this means that even if I am diving with other divers minted from conventional agencies, I still insist on RB so that diving with another person who will breathe down his/tank is even rarer than equipment failure. So, if I have to donate, I am pretty sure it will be due to an equipment failure.

If someone's air gets shut off mid-breath without warning, he's not going to be calming signaling that he's out of air, he'll be making a beeline for one of your regs, freaked out and bug-eyed. Giving a diver on the verge of panicking 7 feet of rope to play with is not high on my list of smart things to do underwater.

In that situation, a short hose would have been worse since he is now close enough to punch you in the face while wrangling the regulator out of your mouth. I believe that is smart to you?

C'mom Mossman, you know I am right, just admit it.

 

[randytay]

Except for a pool session or two I only dive with a long hose and have had a couple OW students go for it right out of class. It is not a liablility in OW recreational diving in any way I can see. I'd rather have 7 feet of hose if some dip runs out of air and is not calm enough to signal it. I do not want them grabbing me and taking me with them. The long hose gives me a chance to get them under some kind of control and then separate enough to allow for a nice calm, controlled, ascent and if they should take off they will be doing it without a reg once they get to the end of that hose.

An OOA diver should not be panicking in the first place if a good, well trained, buddy is nearby. They signal, the octo is donated, they make sure everything is ok and they ascend. That's the whole point of doing OOA drills, swims, and ascents in the pool until it becomes second nature to react calmly before going to OW. That is the way I was trained in my PADI OW class. We did buddy breathing and swims to a donor after dropping the reg. I do them in my class.

I have a rescue class of 8 students tomorrow and I'll bet at least three of us are diving long hose and BPW. Some will have AIR II type devices. No one will have the same configuration and every one will drill with all the different types of set ups as a buddy. Air sharing swims to prolong a tank are much nicer when you can be at arms length from a buddy.

Long hose is not just for cave and wreck. That was another factor in me leaving my original instructor. He said the same BS about them. As a result he took too long getting me the 7ft hose I wanted. So when he did get it in I already had one. And two sets of doubles, 4 more regs, a stage bottle, and two BPW set ups. He lost all those sales because of his uniformed, narrow minded views.

To add to that, I do not see the point of having multiple configurations when I can have the sane configuration for openwater recreational, openwater techical, wreck penetration, caverns, cave etc etc.

 

[randytay]

BTW, for the record, I am not saying that the short hose is bad. It will do its job when the situation calls for it. I am just saying that the long hose is better.

 

[Mossman]

Why do you think I opted the "kool aid" route of diving? Hint: so we can agree on certain very important issues like RB; this means that even if I am diving with other divers minted from conventional agencies, I still insist on RB so that diving with another person who will breathe down his/tank is even rarer than equipment failure. So, if I have to donate, I am pretty sure it will be due to an equipment failure.

Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were taking a DM class, presumably in order to lead dives. Can DMs decide they only want to lead the sorts of divers who don't run out of air?

To add to that, I do not see the point of having multiple configurations when I can have the sane configuration for openwater recreational, openwater techical, wreck penetration, caverns, cave etc etc.

Ah, the "one size fits all" mentality. Very frugal, but not entirely practical. A tech configuration complete with cannister light, long hose, doubles, stage bottles, etc., is obviously overkill for a 30' dive in the Florida Keys. Even the BP/W is too "techy" since it's designed for doubles. If I were to go hiking in Antarctica, I wouldn't wear the same clothes that I wear on the beach in the tropics. But YMMV.

 

[fjpatrum]

Ah, the "one size fits all" mentality. Very frugal, but not entirely practical. A tech configuration complete with cannister light, long hose, doubles, stage bottles, etc., is obviously overkill for a 30' dive in the Florida Keys. Even the BP/W is too "techy" since it's designed for doubles. If I were to go hiking in Antarctica, I wouldn't wear the same clothes that I wear on the beach in the tropics. But YMMV.

The same configuration doesn't necessarily mean carrying all the same accessories.

A BP/W isn't necessarily designed for doubles. It happens to be a more suitable design for doubles, as I understand it, than other options, but that doesn't mean it's sole purpose is for diving doubles and it is ill-suited for singles. Quite the contrary, it's very well suited for diving singles or doubles.

Using the same regs and same BC for all dives isn't the same as wearing the same clothes in the tropics and Antarctic. (That would be closer to saying that wearing the same exposure suit is appropriate for cold water diving versus tropics diving.) Presumably you're doing different activities in those two locations which makes the comparison even less valid. It is more like using a specific subset of equipment, such as boots/ trekking poles, sunglasses etc on both types of hiking.

By your logic a different configuration of hoses should be used for OW and cave/wreck penetration diving simply because you're performing slightly different tasks. In reality, the "more complicated/advanced" solution works for both situations and therefore becomes simpler and easier to maintain and practice with in all circumstances. With a single configuration of the basic equipment (BC and reg configuration) you're less likely to make mistakes when emergencies happen because you won't need to remember what configuration you're using, it will just be automatic because it's the only configuration you use.

PS: I'm just pointing out a flaw in your logic, not necessarily disagreeing that a long hose is unnecessary for OW rec diving.

 

[randytay]

Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were taking a DM class, presumably in order to lead dives. Can DMs decide they only want to lead the sorts of divers who don't run out of air?

Grasping at straws now? How about you answer this question: Do you want to lead the sort of divers who wants to run out of air? Or those who intentionally do so? As a DM, I can educate divers during my briefing about RB. Of course if you choose to neglect that kind of important thing like minimum air pressure or turn pressure in YOUR dive briefing, I sure as hell will not want to dive with you or led by you.

Ah, the "one size fits all" mentality. Very frugal, but not entirely practical. A tech configuration complete with cannister light, long hose, doubles, stage bottles, etc., is obviously overkill for a 30' dive in the Florida Keys. Even the BP/W is too "techy" since it's designed for doubles. If I were to go hiking in Antarctica, I wouldn't wear the same clothes that I wear on the beach in the tropics. But YMMV.

Ah, a typical non-thinking diver who regurgitates nonsense base on what he hears and decides to assume. Who says I must have stage bottles and can lights and doubles just because I have a bp/w and long hose? Don't you know that the Hog configuration is totally modular and the so-called kool-aid approach to diving is "not to bring what you do not need"? Oh wait, I forgot, YOU DON"T THINK! Maybe that's why you just assume?


You do know I am right and I know deep down you agree with me. Just admit it

 

[Mossman]

and the so-called kool-aid approach to diving is "not to bring what you do not need"? Oh wait, I forgot, YOU DON"T THINK! Maybe that's why you just assume?

Why do you think I've been arguing anything else? You don't need the long hose, just as you don't need the cannister light (though a lot of DIR divers would dispute this) or doubles, etc. Even you admitted the short hose works just fine.

If it's modular, switch out the hose to something more appropriate for the dive. If you're changing everything else about the DIR configuration to suit a particular dive, surely it's no problem to unscrew one hose and screw in another?

 

[randytay]

Why do you think I've been arguing anything else? You don't need the long hose, just as you don't need the cannister light (though a lot of DIR divers would dispute this) or doubles, etc. Even you admitted the short hose works just fine.

If it's modular, switch out the hose to something more appropriate for the dive. If you're changing everything else about the DIR configuration to suit a particular dive, surely it's no problem to unscrew one hose and screw in another?

A dying man's last attempt at futility. Ok I will humor you one last time:

What you need depends on your where you dive. I can dive singles on my BP/W and still be compliant with DIR. Maybe I am not the first one to tell you this, but DIR is not about equipment, but how you use it.

The short hose works just fine but with severe limitations. The long hose works better. Heck, by your argument, you dont need an octo or secondary since buddy breathing works just fine. But you use an octo, air2 etc because it works BETTER. Same reason why I use a long hose.

And why would I want to screw things around when what I have is obviously better? Again, by your logic, just screw off the octo and use buddy breathing.

And who says I am changing about the DIR configuration? You really DO NOT KNOW what DIR is do you?

Ok Mossman, quit while you still have a platform to stand on. I really do not want to destroy the only piece of plank you are hanging on to. You know I am right, just admit it.

 

[Mossman]

What you need depends on your where you dive. I can dive singles on my BP/W and still be compliant with DIR. Maybe I am not the first one to tell you this, but DIR is not about equipment, but how you use it.

And who says I am changing about the DIR configuration? You really DO NOT KNOW what DIR is do you?

"GUE's equipment configuration is based on the DIR philosophy of diving that promotes diver safety and enjoyment through a reasoned approach to teamwork, equipment choices and diver training. GUE's equipment configuration is holistically conceived to be functional, with minor adaptations, in any environment."

You might want to re-read #5 below: "Long Hose: Optional in shallow, open water diving,"

On the other hand, #26 states: "Primary Light: Hip-mounted, canister-style light; this is optional in some environments, but valuable in nearly all." According to DIR, both cannister light and long hose are optional, yet the cannister light is at least valuable in nearly all. Does it say the long hose is valuable in shallow, open water diving? Uh, no.

Clearly, if it's "optional", it's not necessary. If it's not necessary for the dive, it should be left behind.

You might want to check out the GUE site. It may clear up your obvious misconceptions about DIR. It is very much about equipment.
DIR Equipment Configuration

A good SCUBA equipment configuration should allow for the addition of items necessary to perform a specific dive without interfering with or changing the existing configuration. Diving with the same configuration not only helps solve problems, it prevents them.
Following is a list of equipment as that is of prime consideration:

1. Mask: Low Volume mask reduces drag and requires less effort to clear it of water.
2. Primary Regulator: Quality regulator that will be passed to an out-of-air diver.
3. Short Hose: Should be long enough to breathe comfortably, but not long enough to bow and create drag.
4. Back-Up Regulator: Quality regulator that a diver will use as a reserve either in the event of a failure or in an air-sharing episode.
5. Long Hose: Optional in shallow, open water diving, but mandatory in deeper or overhead diving; the long hose simplifies air sharing. When used, the long hose, along with the primary regulator, should ALWAYS be placed on the diver's right post.
6. Back-Up Lights: Tucked away to reduce drag but still allow for easy one-hand removal.
7. Goodman Handle Light Head: Allows for hands-free diving while allowing the diver to easily direct the focused light beam.
8. Thermal Suit: Appropriate to keep diver alert and comfortable.
9. Crotch Strap: Allows for custom fit, and supports two D-rings: one works as a scooter attachment point; (divers should not hang equipment here as it would hang too low); and one further up, closer to the back plate, which works for towing additional gear. The crotch strap also holds the BC in position and prevents the BC from floating up away from the body.
10. Hood: Where necessary to keep diver alert and comfortable.
11. Mask Strap: Strong strap that will resist breaking.
12. Necklace: Designed to hold the back-up regulator within easy access.
13. Corrugated Hose: Should be just long enough to allow for ear clearing and potential dry suit inflation while actuating inflator, but not so long that it drags or entangles easily.
14. Power Inflation Hose: Should be long enough for a diver to easily use his/her corrugated hose, but not long enough for it to bow or otherwise create excess drag.
15. D-rings: No more than two on the chest, positioned to reduce the drag of attached items; one hip D-ring to hold the pressure gauge.
16. Pressure Gauge Hose: Custom hose allows a diver to easily read the gauge after unclipping, but does not bow or dangle, thus avoiding excess drag.
17. Pressure Gauge: Quality brass gauge should be easy to read and reliable.
18. Knife: Waist-mounted in front, near the center of the diver's body, for easy access.
19. Pockets: Hip-mounted to reduce drag; these pockets are ideal for storing slates, decompression tables, small guideline spools or other necessary equipment.

The following additional configuration items appear on the next two pages:

1. Knobs: Soft knobs (to limit risk of breakage) should be opened completely.
2. Valve: Contingent on environment and diving activity. Dual orifice valves (H or Manifold) are an excellent way to increase safety and redundancy.
3. Burst Disks: Use of double disks prevents accidental burst failure.
4. Buoyancy Compensator: Adjusted based upon needed lift whether one is diving single or double tanks. Buoyancy should be sufficient to float equipment by itself while at the surface.
5. Cylinders: Contingent on environment and diving activity.
6. Harness and Backplate: Designed to hold the diver snugly to their rig while reducing drag and increasing control.
7. Primary Light: Hip-mounted, canister-style light; this is optional in some environments, but valuable in nearly all.
8. Alternate Lift Device: Lift bag, diver alert marker, or surface life raft, for open water diving. Halcyon's MC system allows for storage in backplate pack for increased streamlining.
9. Overboard Discharge: Also known as a P-Valve; used with a condom catheter by male divers to allow for urination during long dives with a dry suit.
10. Bottom Timer / depth gauge: Wrist mounted to eliminate drag and entanglement.
11. Watch: Wrist-mounted, with a functional stopwatch to allow for timing safety or decompression stops.
12. Compass: Wrist mounted to eliminate drag and entanglement.
13. Fins: These should have no attachment buckles that can break. Replace with a more robust connection.
14. Guideline Reel: Use is contingent on the diving environment; it is usually mounted on the rear crotch strap D-ring for streamlining and to reduce clutter. Spools and other guideline devices are usually kept in the diver's hip-mounted pocket.