Have training standards "slipped"?

[MikeFerrara]

Mike, you know I have been involved in many many thousands of resort courses, and in my experience, they dont need medical attention at the end of it. If they did, the course would not exist and you know it. However, I think it may be poll worthy.

The ear problems gerally come to light in the days or weeks following the dive, often after they are home from their trip. Many times, all they know is that they had problems but aren't aware of the caus. Other times, they end up in a docs office.

I sort of took the pole. I had hundreds of former resort dive participants come into my shop to either get certified or inquire about it. MOST had concerns about their ears directly related to their resort dive experience. I really don't think their getting enough pratice tryiong to equalize at pool like depths before going to OW. Combine that with less than precise control of ascent and descents and, what do you get?

just because you dont feel comfortable with it, doesnt mean its wrong and the thousands of successful resort dives conducted every day prove that there is nothing wrong with it.

Define "success". I would agree that the vast majority of the participants survive the experience.

we are talking about dive 1 here folks, not going down or going down and not coming up is a lack of bouyancy contrlo at this level, it doesnt have to be pretty, it just has to have a successful outcome.

Your definition?

 

[Hank49]

The ear problems gerally come to light in the days or weeks following the dive, often after they are home from their trip.

Define "success". I would agree that the vast majority of the participants survive the experience.

Your definition?

Wouldn't their interest in furthering their dive training or experience indicate that in fact, the resort course was a success? If it were so traumatic I doubt they would ever consider diving again.
Protecting beginning divers ears isn't a problem. One of the main things you teach is to signal problem, point to ears and the descent stops. I don't recall any injuries related to ears in these courses. Comments on feeling pressure change, yes, but injuries? None.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I am thinking that these students need 100 plus hours of pool work to be able to master their concept of neutral buoyancy.

Why on EARTH should we allow noobs to dive like noobs???

Exactly, and the customer does not want dangerous, difficult, arduous or grueling, they want safe, easy, adventurous and fun.

Those who do not meet what the consumer wants quickly goes out of business.

Yep, noobs dive like noobs and people that haven't developed some proficiency in diving skills have a pretty hard time diving. You'd agree that diving is easier when you know how, wouldn't you?

You'd agree that the more difficult the environment, the more difficult it would be, wouldn't you?

Trying to dive in OW without knowing how to dive is demonstrably more "arduous and grueling" than it is after one learns how. That would be why we use confined water for learning those basics.

Pete, 100 hours is your number. The number that worked for me with a class of 4 is
15. 15 hours of confined water with a class of 4 and I have 4 people who are diving pretty well when they first go to OW. Of course, time isn't the only issue. It's what is taught and how. Now, they have the physical skills and only need experience in the environment. It's seems to make more sense than trying to learn the physical skills while dealing with the additional challenges of the OW environment or worse...just dealing with the environment without even trying to learn the physical skills. Going to OW first is sort of like putting the cart before the horse. But, hey, maybe there are horses out there who are better at pushing than pulling. On second though, I doubt it.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Wouldn't their interest in furthering their dive training or experience indicate that in fact, the resort course was a success? If it were so traumatic I doubt they would ever consider diving again.

Actually, I've met many who are convinced that they can't dive because of problems they had on a resort course. They don't all continue their training.

Protecting beginning divers ears isn't a problem. One of the main things you teach is to signal problem, point to ears and the descent stops.

first, they often don't recognize the problem until it's too late. Then they have to hault the descent...sort of tough without knowing how.

I don't recall any injuries related to ears in these courses. Comments on feeling pressure change, yes, but injuries? None.

You work at the resort. You need to talk to them after they've been back home for a while. Many of the injuries I'm refering to are relatively minor squeezes that usually just result in some filling of the middle ear for anywhere from a few days to a couple of weeks. In some cases, to a great enough extent that the tourist ends up seeking medical attention.

Further, if you look, I don't think you'll have trouble finding many casses of such injuries in full blown classes. How many times, on the subject of equalizion do students nod their head in understanding yet feel some pain/pressure on the way to the deep end of the pool? The pain/pressure goes away so they stay and do their skills. the following week you can have a student asking you how to get the water out of their ears. Of course it isn't water but rather fluids in the middle ear.

After a few occurances of this we ended up with quit the "ritual" we went through just to get students down in the deep end of the pool for the first time. We actually had them follow the sloping bottom (for absolute control) with me in front of them, facing them (backing up). We move a couple of feet forward (a few inches down) at a time and tt the first indication of "pressure" I stop their forward movement which immediately prevents any increasing depth and they stay there or move shallower until they learn to equalize. I don't think that I've ever had a class where there wasn't at least one students who needed a few tries.

The problem is that they don't yet have any experience actually doing it and they aren't really sure what it's supposed to actually feel like. The text on the flip chart just isn't enough.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Deletia...

Discover scuba does not equate to CW1 and OW1 - at least as far as my OW course was taught. It equates to bits and pieces from several dives.

In short, I think it is a very good program that should be kept completely separate from OW certification.

Some good points. These programs are going to be conducted one way or the other. I absolutely agree that they should be kept seperate from OW certification and if I'm conducting the training, it will be kept seperate...no ifs ands or buts about it. However, the PADI system is largely based on tying them together.

 

[MikeFerrara]

To the agency bashers: if you don't like the way the agencies are doing it please start your own agency. However, if you don't have the nads to do that, then I have no respect for you.

[/soapbox]

You can respect whoever you want for whatever reasons you want but it just doesn't seem logical to imply that one can't be displeased with the practices of the certification agencies unless they start their own.

There are many products that I think are junk yet I'm not going to start a company to manufactur each of those products myself. I'm not too happy with the performance of my Dodge truck but do I need to start an auto manufacturing company before I can say so?

I think you make another completely rediculous assertion here and that is that ones decision whether or not to found their own agency is based on whether or not they have "nads".

There are certainly those of us who have considered starting an agency. Speaking for myself, my decision not to start my own agency is based on two things. The first is feasibility...the lack of a good business case for doing so. I just don't think I have the recourses to make it profitable in the existing market. I am certainly not in a position to undertake such a venture as a charitable cause. Secondly, I don't think the creation of more agencies is going to solve anything. We have enough agencies and too much reliance on them as it is.

Nads just don't enter into it. I used my "nads" when I dumped most of my lifes savings into opening my own dive shop. And, yes, a major factor in deciding to open my own was that I didn't like the others that were around (WRONG REASON). Having lost my butt, due, in large part, to having such giant "nads", I can tell you that more or bigger "nads" just isn't the answer.

 

[Hank49]

Actually, I've met many who are convinced that they can't dive because of problems they had on a resort course. They don't all continue their training.

first, they often don't recognize the problem until it's too late. Then they have to hault the descent...sort of tough without knowing how.

You work at the resort. .

When I did intro courses, we went down a line together, looking into their eyes every foot of the descent. It's not hard to stop when hanging onto a line. And most recognize the sharp pain of non equalization about as quickly has one notices the dentist hitting a nerve when drilling your tooth. You're right, my experience was a a resort, with 21 shops and we all knew what happened in every one of them. Most ear problems were with instructor or DM candidates diving every day.
I know we'll never agree on this, but my stand is: as long as we're not killing or injuring people, it's doing pretty well. And with law suits in the US the way they are, no one would risk taking anyone diving if it wasn't successful in that regard. Driving cars is more dangerous. If we make standards too strict (not saying we CAN'T improve, we can) the whole industry will suffer. A lot of money is made selling vacation rentals to people who will never dive again, but they may buy some gear and pay a divemasters weekly salary that week. I think it's all pretty good.

 

[MikeFerrara]

And with law suits in the US the way they are, no one would risk taking anyone diving if it wasn't successful in that regard.

Lots of these resort dives yake place in countries other than the US. do all those contries even have legal systems that would support such a suite?

Driving cars is more dangerous.

Driving a car can be very dangerous, however, the skill of an individual driver still has some bearing on the probability that the driver will avoid injury but...I don't see what driving has to do with diving. I haven't found a way to make a living and get through life without driving. I have to spend a ton of time on some of the most dangerous roads in the nation and I don't much like it. I don't have to dive though.

If we make standards too strict (not saying we CAN'T improve, we can) the whole industry will suffer. A lot of money is made selling vacation rentals to people who will never dive again, but they may buy some gear and pay a divemasters weekly salary that week. I think it's all pretty good.

I think we lack a common frame of reference from which to discuss the subject. When I discuss dive training, I try to discuss what I think are the elements of "good training"..ie, the best training that I know how to conduct.

If we are going to discuss dive training, you should be aware of the fact that I don't care about the industry. In fact, while I like to dive and like to teach diving, I really don't even like the dive industry very much. I am very interested in your ideas concerning how I could or could have provide(d) more effective training. I am not interested in any business bases reasons for intentionally providing less effective training. We know that pumping students through and selling lots of resort spots, try-it-dives, charter trips, certifications and equipment can be financially rewarding but none of that really concerns me and I'm not, in any way, attempting to argue that point. As far as I'm concerned all those aspects of diving just add a lot of conflicts of interest to the training equation. I fully expect buisnesses to do what they think will be most profitable but that is their business and their concern, not mine. Let the buyer beware. Any point of view I have regarding dive training only relates to the direct in-water results of that training.

I made more money conducting training the PADI way but it was easier and more fun for the students and me when I did it my way. I was not successful in making my way of teaching profitable and I have the books and tax returns to prove it...the dives were still lots more fun.

So, with total and intentional disregard for the dive industry I hope that my rants on training help at least a few buyers (potential divers and potentioal instructors) be more aware. I'm not selling anything but that's what I am promoting.

 

[captain]

If we make standards too strict (not saying we CAN'T improve, we can) the whole industry will suffer. A lot of money is made selling vacation rentals to people who will never dive again, but they may buy some gear and pay a divemasters weekly salary that week. I think it's all pretty good.

Finally someone spoke the truth. It's about money. But maybe if those people who might never dive again got better training that allowed them to better enjoy the experience maybe they would dive again.

 

[Hank49]

Driving a car can be very dangerous, however, the skill of an individual driver still has some bearing on the probability that the driver will avoid injury but...I don't see what driving has to do with diving. I haven't found a way to make a living and get through life without driving. I have to spend a ton of time on some of the most dangerous roads in the nation and I don't much like it. I don't have to dive though.

.

Given what you just stated then, what is about the lack of dive training that bothers you so much?
It just seems odd that you accept a lower level of driving training as necessary, which I don't believe is, because the driving test is as bad as kneeling in the sand and doing skills, yet we release them onto America's highways. Underaged drivers just pay the insurance companies more....again...money. Yet inadequate DIVE training is so unacceptable. I guess to each his own but I don't understand where you're coming from. To me, it's the same human fault in each case so why relate it to only one aspect in life? (ok, ok, this is a Scuba board but you know what I mean)

Regarding laws in other countries: no, there wasn't the threat of them in the Philippines. We didn't even need insurance. But until I met you on Scubaboard, I'd never heard of so many accidents and injuries related to diving. No offence Mike, but that's a fact.