Have training standards "slipped"?

[ba_hiker]

Well, I for one, doubt that training standards have slipped that much. I was (first) trained in 1968-1969, and the standards, for my class, were pretty low. The other divers I dove with had similar training.

The class was 3 evenings and two shallow beach dives. First evening was all classroom, covering equiptment, procedures, and tables. The remaining 2 classes were half hour in the class and two hours in the pool. We did basic stuff buddy breathing and so on the first night, and doff and don the second. That was it.

There was no coverage of bouyency issues (of course there were no BCs either, just horse collar vests with manual inflation), no safe seconds, or SPGs. We used J valves, with a 600 lb reserve, and acended when we went on reserve. No discussion of buddy checks, rescue, boat diving, repetive diving, safety stops....

The two ocean dives were similarly lame. First was off shore about 100 ft in 20 ft of water. Instructor got buddy pairs kneeling in the sand, then knocked our masks off and we buddy breathed to the surface. Second was a group dive, led by the instructor, to about 45 ft. That was it.

Later i was told that this class was better than most.. most instructors, it was said, did not do doff and don and let you keep your mask on durring the buddy ascent.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Given what you just stated then, what is about the lack of dive training that bothers you so much?

I've probably posted hundreds of pagfes on this board outlining this in detail.

It just seems odd that you accept a lower level of driving training as necessary, which I don't believe is, because the driving test is as bad as kneeling in the sand and doing skills, yet we release them onto America's highways. Underaged drivers just pay the insurance companies more....again...money

I don't accept any such thing! I simply have no say in it. If you want to discuss driver training and the skill level of drivers I'll be happy to tell you what I think since it hasn't even been 24 hours since the last time I almost got killed on an Il toll road and it probably hasnt been 36 hours since the last accident I witnessed.

Yet inadequate DIVE training is so unacceptable. I guess to each his own but I don't understand where you're coming from. To me, it's the same human fault in each case so why relate it to only one aspect in life? (ok, ok, this is a Scuba board but you know what I mean)

You answerd your own question. I discuss dive training here because it's a diving board.

Regarding laws in other countries: no, there wasn't the threat of them in the Philippines. We didn't even need insurance. But until I met you on Scubaboard, I'd never heard of so many accidents and injuries related to diving. No offence Mike, but that's a fact.[/QUOTE]

For about the hundredth time on this board I'll ask...is the death toll really the best measure of the quality of dive training? I dived for quit a few years with no training at all. I never got hurt or killed but that can't mean that my training was good because I didn't have any. The fact is, we can survive this without any agency at all. It isn't that difficult to drop to the bottom, walk around for a while and climb back out without getting hurt. The "industry" keeps getting by by taking credit for something that they don't have anything to do with...the safety record of diving. In fact, I'll bet that the majority of those who do get hurt aren't the type to just get some equipment and go diving on their own like I did. They wouldn't have ever been in the water had it not been for the marketing. Is the industry preventing accidents or causing them?

Let me ask another question. How does the accident rate of diving really compare to other activities taking into account the exposure? Do you really think driving is more dangerous? I don't. Have you ever even heard of a fatal bowling accident? LOL I haven't and I've spent more time in bowling alleys than at quarries but I've seen way more ambulances coming in and out of the quarries. Sorry, I think that if you really put the number in perspective, diving will come out looking like a regular blood bath.

I'd assume you've browsed the accident forum. Why blame me? I don't cause them and I don't make them up. The only thing I do that's different than what the industry does is talk about them and suggest that there should be some accountability. The dead divers were held accountable. Now, lets talk about everyone else involved.

How many accidents in the last few months related to free flows? Yet, do we see agencies doing anything to address that? How many accidents, according to DAN involve buoyancy control problems? Just pick a calm little midwest quarry like Gilboa (as an example). The number of times ambulances have had to respond there is a matter of public record, I'm sure. In fact, tell me when you last saw any agency make any standards change for the purpose of improving safety?

We can all now just quietly slip back into denial now and concentrate on the financial growth and success of the dive industry.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Hey Hank...and everyone else...read http://www.scubaboard.com/showpost.php?p=2866292&postcount=45

 

[The Chairman]

You can respect whoever you want for whatever reasons you want

I'm glad we cleared that up. I was beginning to worry.

The real issue that Mike has with the training agencies is the Holy Grail he calls "Neutral Buoyancy". They simply don't teach it the way he wants them to! All skills must be accomplished mid water or you will surely die. Just check all of those diving accidents! 99.9999 percent of them can be attributed to a lack of buoyancy control. Those accidents on the highway? Again, if the driver had been able to tune that radio mid-water, this NEVER would have happened. What? The DVM doesn't even TEST for tuning the radio, much less while being mid-water? Scandalous!

If you don't like the way the agencies do things, then by all means CREATE a new agency. But don't shoot them for making OW training economically viable for at least a few instructors.

 

[TSandM]

Pete, maybe it's because I've been up all night and I'm grumpy, but I simply have to take issue with your last post.

I've been in the water with somebody who freaked out because his mask flooded and he couldn't cope with it. I've BEEN the diver who couldn't maintain buoyancy and trim while coping with a flooded mask, although I didn't panic. I've talked to a fellow diver after a couple of days of diving on 600 foot walls in Indonesia, when she told me there was no way she could replace and clear her mask at depth -- she knew it.

I was there in my Rescue class, when the instructor was amazed and impressed that Peter and I could carry out a competent air-share WHILE DIVING, without losing buoyancy control.

The problem is that you go out of open water and you go DIVING. And as Mike says again and again, diving isn't (or shouldn't be) conducted on your knees, or your feet. It's done while floating, hopefully enough above the bottom not to damage it. And problems should be coped with in the same place. And if students can be taught to manage basic issues without losing buoyancy control BEFORE they take off to dive by themselves, a great many stressors are already defused.

No, people aren't dropping like flies. But they quit diving. I don't know how many quit diving because they had an experience like mine -- uncontrolled ascent from 70 feet -- and escaped okay, but wondered what would happen next time. Or how many quit because it's not FUN, because you're just going up and down all the time, and your ears can't stand it. Or because they end up underwater alone and don't like it.

If an OW class CAN be conducted to avoid turning out people who will have those experiences, I think that's preferable. And there are instructors on this board who state that they can and do conduct such classes.

 

[Bryan]

Not only have the standards slipped, the water just isn't as wet as it used to be!

 

[D_B]

You (and others) have a point TS&M, about midwater skills .. my instructor made sure all of us could control our buoyancy/be horizontal later on, but I know that I would not have been comfortable doing the first skills midwater, but afterwords, and before the openwater .. :shrug:

 

[The Chairman]

Pete, maybe it's because I've been up all night and I'm grumpy, but I simply have to take issue with your last post.

Lest I be misunderstood.

All my students do their entire repertoire of skills mid water. But I don't obsess over it.

There are times I allow my students to touch the bottom. We do it ALL THE TIME in a cave: grab and pull! But for the most part my students are horizontal. Why? Because they are imitating ME. Why am I horizontal? Because that was BEATEN in to my skull during my ITC. If your buoyancy skills were not PERFECT you simply did not pass. If you allowed one of your "students" in the water overweighted, you simply did not pass. They critiqued how we weighted our students, they critiqued how we managed them on the surface and they critiqued how we managed them below. It was BRUTAL! But what can I say? MB was a part of this class and so was one of the members of the Board of Directors for NAUI.

My open water classes are routinely mistaken for advanced classes and once even as a cave class because of the attitude in the water. This took a mere 10-12 hours in a pool. Now, there are some students who require a LOT more attention and a lot more pool work. I believe in providing a HIGH standard and then making it ultra enjoyable for my students to get there. If you make it an underwater game, the learning curve accelerates phenomenally.

So, what don't I buy? That issues with trim and weighting post OW are the result of the agencies. If there is ONE THING that I stress to my students: It's YOUR DIVE! I can't decide if you are ready or not. I can't make decisions for you either. It's YOUR DIVE!

Now, lets take a look at Jarrod Jablonski. He, like Mike & Thalassamania, did not like the skills he was seeing. So, rather than calling EVERYONE incompetent as these see fit to do, he just created his own agency. THAT took guts. You will never, ever hear him demeaning the industry to make GUE look better. HE JUST MAKES SURE THAT HIS STUDENTS "DO IT RIGHT"!

No, the agencies provide a great service to our industry. If it weren't for them AND their marketing only people like Thalassamania would be diving. Maybe that's how he and Mike want it?

 

[DivingsInMyBlood]

i agree with the points made if you make it too hard then nobody will be diving, besides most people just want to do it for FUN, thats right i said the f word, after all is that not why there are more advanced courses for the die hards so they can pursue diving to the levels they want.

 

[DiverBizz]

We get the training and most likely the instructor follows all of the standards...so that we can be OW divers...get experience: do dives within the limits established and practice the skills and emergency situations and you can be as safe as possible in the given dive. I can't speak to resort training because I don't know any resort instructors but all of the instructors I know are very concerned about turning out lifelong, safe divers, who can flood a mask or loose the mask and remain calm.