Have training standards "slipped"?

[stargazer61]

I got started into diving through the discover scuba program. If it were not for this option, I would most likely never have "got round to it". I did one confined water dive (got to see a lionfish on this dive ) and then did 4 dives to 12m over the next 2 days. We worked our own BC's. Bouyancy control was relatively easy in a 3mm shorty wetsuit - compared with the full 7mm suit accompanied by half a ton of lead that I had on my OW certification. I think discover scuba is a great system that does what it is designed to do.

When I looked into OW certification back in NZ, I was aware that I could maybe get credit for the discover scuba certification. The only benefit in doing this was going to be a cost saving, and none of the LDS's were interested in providing an abbreviated OW course for me. So I did the full course at the full price. There were some skills in some dives that I already had, but there was new stuff in every single dive. I found both the confined water weekend and the following open water weekend quite challenging enough without cutting any dives! In my view, PADI should remove the option to credit this as part of the OW certification. If I had been given the option I would have been tempted to take an abbreviated course to save money, figuring that there was no point in repeating what I had already done. This would have been a mistake.

Discover scuba does not equate to CW1 and OW1 - at least as far as my OW course was taught. It equates to bits and pieces from several dives.

In short, I think it is a very good program that should be kept completely separate from OW certification.

 

[Thalassamania]

Who are you to claim that the agencies are lying? NAUI certainly presents their certification as a license to learn. PADI is explicit that you are ONLY certified to dive in conditions similar to those you experienced in your OW class. This again, is mere agency bashing

Agency bashing? Hardly. Criticism of the entire industry? Absolutely.

and nothing more and I for one suspect that your motives are ego driven.

I'd tell you what I think drives your motives, but unlike you I do try to respect the TOS, but then I do not enjoy sovereign immunity.

As usual you seem to have problems with basic reading comprehension. The lie is that there exists an intersection between safe, easy, adventure and fun, ain't no such place except in Disneyworld's Adventureland.

But then, you have a "closed shop". Your customers HAVE to abide by your rules or they don't get to play scientist under the water. We get it: you don't have to worry about economics to play your game. Unfortunately, the rest of us live in the real world.

The regulations that govern us are those developed by some of the most knowledgeable and influential individuals in diving without market consideration, they are a consensus of the community, not a choice of a customer. If want the grandma that you keep talking about taught by the lowest bidder, that's fine, I insist on (and deliver) more than you seem to be able to offer, both for my loved ones and those I am responsible for. If that's ego ... so be it and so what?

 

[The Chairman]

Agency bashing? Hardly. Criticism of the entire industry? Absolutely.

You just claimed that the agencies have committed fraud by lying. THAT is agency bashing.

I'd tell you what I think drives your motives, but unlike you I do try to respect the TOS, but then I do not enjoy sovereign immunity.

Oh, do tell. And WHERE have I violated the TOS? To date, I have not called you an arrogant jerk which WOULD be against the TOS and I don't intend to. But I can SURELY state that I think your motives are based largely on your ego. That's not against the TOS: it's the truth!

As usual you seem to have problems with basic reading comprehension. The lie is that there exists an intersection between safe, easy, adventure and fun, ain't no such place except in Disneyworld's Adventureland.

So you admit that you are incapable of doing this. Watch how the REAL world does it nicely and without remorse. I would suggest that you poll anyone of my students as to how I provide PRECISELY this environment. It ain't hard if you care more about your students than you do your sacred cows.

The regulations that govern us are those developed by some of the most knowledgeable and...

Oh give it a rest. You have a closed shop and it seems you can get away with being pedantic, overbearing and obsessive. When you leave the ivory bath tub you operate in and look into the real world, you can see HUNDREDS of instructor providing a fun and easy adventure that leads to certifying SAFE divers. Their biggest sin? They don't buy into your lie that learning how to dive has to be difficult.

 

[Walter]

Are we becoming Dive Snobs here? I thought we dive because we love it. Are we in the military SEAL training course? Recreational diving is my bag...I got trained by an excellent tough instructor...who encouraged the love of diving, not do it my way or the highway. He did follow standards and mandate that we did everything safely and correctly.

No we are not in a military course. No one is advocating such an approach. The approach that some inaccurately describe as military or "dangerous, difficult, arduous or grueling" is none of those. It's actually easier, but it does take longer and it costs more. You can't crank 'em out at the same pace, so it hurts the bottom line.

You just claimed that the agencies have committed fraud by lying. THAT is agency bashing.

Actually, I have letters from official representatives of an agency in which they contradict themselves. That looks a lot like lying to me. If I were to state that the agency lied in that instance and provided the letters for your examination, would you consider that bashing?

Those who do not meet what the consumer wants quickly goes out of business.

No arguments there. That's why McDonalds is the biggest restaurant chain in the world and PADI is the biggest dive certification agency in the world. People want fast and cheap. Quality is not a consideration for the vast majority, they only want instant gratification.

 

[Mako Mark]

The lie is that there exists an intersection between safe, easy, adventure and fun, ain't no such place except in Disneyworld's Adventureland.

diving can and is conducted safely
The only diving injury I have had after fifteen years full time in the industry were 4 broken ribs from being dropped during a rescue exercise.

Diving is easy,
The only people I have been unable to teach diving to are those who dont want to learn, the rest it is just a matter of time and effort.

Diving is adventurous.
I get to explore exciting and beautiful new parts of the planet.

Diving is fun.
I guess unless you are a scientist, oh no, thats not true, I am a published scientist too and I still manage to have fun diving.

where is the lie???

I also think that you just like trolling.

 

[Doubles]

Done
Edit: Florida is a long way from here...whats the chances of scanning the relevant pages for us?

Hey Azza, we are heading to the Land of the Long White Cloud next year.... If you can talk Walter out of them, we can bring them to you.

I'm sure there still under copy write protection

-s

 

[The Chairman]

Actually, I have letters from official representatives of an agency in which they contradict themselves. That looks a lot like lying to me. If I were to state that the agency lied in that instance and provided the letters for your examination, would you consider that bashing?

Walter, I took exception to a GROSS misrepresentation by Thalassamania that the AGENCIES made a specific lie. So far, neither he or you have offered evidence to support his libel.

As for contradictions, no one is perfect. A contradiction does not necessarily constitute a lie and not all lies show up as contradictions. As for the comparison of the agencies you wrote for Eddie, I had no problems with the language you used. But, I don't think you drew as many conclusions back then. If you remember, I was one of your most ARDENT supporters during that time and fully backed you in your right to publish such a comparison. I still support your right to do just that.

However, I find the constant bashing such as "the agencies lie" to not only be hollow but a lazy way for someone to promote themselves by tearing others down. It would seem that it is only done to feed the ego and for naught else. I feel rather compelled to expose the self righteous, the pompous and exceedingly arrogant when they make these fallacious suppositions and pander them as God's own truth to the Scuba Diving Community. They only serve to further erode an industry that is feeling pressures from the changing economics of the information age. Herein is my own motive: I don't want to see our industry implode. That might not mean much to a scant few who want to vilify our industry for whatever reason, but please don't expect me to take their line of BS with a teaspoon of sugar and watch them continue to run roughshod over those who are trying to make a difference in the real world.

To the agency bashers: if you don't like the way the agencies are doing it please start your own agency. However, if you don't have the nads to do that, then I have no respect for you.

[/soapbox]

 

[Walter]

I wrote no comparison for Eddie. I wrote it for me. Eddie asked if he could publish it. I agreed.

My conclusions have not changed with regard to standards.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

It seems to me that what really eats at the grey beards is that a properly conducted intro/discover/resort dive does work and there are quality instructors doing this program daily, with satisfied customers and earning a good living in paradise. The naysayers all predicted this dumbing down would be the death of the industry, as well as the death of many non-divers, and they are now trying not to eat their words.

There are some non-divers who end up sold on similar dives that are not properly conducted, like skills hanging on a rope at the back of a boat in 35' of water, and those dives probably produce the majority of the injuries in this dive catagory. Instead of beating your heads against the proverbial brick wall (don't do DSD's), why not try for a change that might actually happen, like requiring pool or pool like conditions for the confined training.

The proof is in the pudding; If you require that the student is comfortable while snorkeling, a competent instructor can conduct DSD's that result in successful dives by non-divers. It happens every day all over the world and some of them don't even require the snorkeling.

 

[The Chairman]

I wrote no comparison for Eddie. I wrote it for me. Eddie asked if he could publish it. I agreed.

Either way, I still supported you when you were being sued. I don't have an issue with comparing the agencies. I do have an issue with bashing the agencies and/or the instructors working under their aegis.