Have training standards "slipped"?

[Azza]

Next time you're in Florida, drop by the house. I also have a set from '72.

Done
Edit: Florida is a long way from here...whats the chances of scanning the relevant pages for us?

 

[Mako Mark]

On the conreary I think it can be a great deal harder. Doing OW dive 1 immediately after CW 1 can be pretty hard without the CW3 skills (all the buoyancy control stuff). From my own experience, I'd say it can even be dangerous

Yet thousands of people do this every single day of the year, except instead of calling it cw1 and ow1 they call it a resort course, and it is not hard, it is easy and enjoyable.

I couldn't give them OW dive1 credit because I know they did that dive without having any buoyancy control...and now I only have 3 dives to get them some experience? No. They'd still have to do another dive 1 with me where they are really diving. .

Mike, they go down they swim around and they come up, that is bouyancy control and is diving. The idea is to make their first dive enjoyable and fun, not a traumatic grueling test.

By not giving credit, you are patronising them. You are saying that if you taught a resort course yesterday, that you would put them back in the pool and repeat yourself by teaching them "this is an arm sweep, this is how to clear a mask..."

They will be sitting there wondering why you are wasting their time.

I just don't see what training value an OW dive 1 done immediately after CW dive 1 could possibly have. Sales value maybe, but not training value.

Once again, OW dive one has no training value as far as rehearsed exercises, there is enough to deal with just going diving, they learn a tremendous amount about equalisation, breathing mask clearing, control of direction and depth, bouyancy control on the surface and (gasp) underwater, and they do this just by going on a dive and looking at fish.

Now that said, dive two can only be performed after CW 3 for the reason you have used to justify repeating dive one.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Yet thousands of people do this every single day of the year, except instead of calling it cw1 and ow1 they call it a resort course, and it is not hard, it is easy and enjoyable.

What always amazed me about those resort courses is the number of people that hurt their ears doing them. A high percentage of the people who walked into my shop after having done a resort program on vacation reported some level of ear injury and many even required medical attention. That's what diving without buoyancy control gets you.

Mike, they go down they swim around and they come up, that is bouyancy control and is diving. The idea is to make their first dive enjoyable and fun, not a traumatic grueling test.

Exactly. Having learned how to dive in confined water first makes that first OW dive far less grueling on everyone.

By not giving credit, you are patronising them. You are saying that if you taught a resort course yesterday, that you would put them back in the pool and repeat yourself by teaching them "this is an arm sweep, this is how to clear a mask..."

They will be sitting there wondering why you are wasting their time.

I'm saying that I wouldn't teach the resort course. I just wouldn't take any diver with CW1 skills only into open water.

Once again, OW dive one has no training value as far as rehearsed exercises, there is enough to deal with just going diving, they learn a tremendous amount about equalisation, breathing mask clearing, control of direction and depth, bouyancy control on the surface and (gasp) underwater, and they do this just by going on a dive and looking at fish.

Except that if the dive is done immediately after CW 1 they don't know anything about controling buoyancy and someone else has to do it for them. I'd rather teach them to do themself in CW then take them to OW. Then they can go for that dive just to look at fish and actually get to do some looking.

Now that said, dive two can only be performed after CW 3 for the reason you have used to justify repeating dive one.[/QUOTE]

I know.

 

[SparticleBrane]

Mike, they go down they swim around and they come up, that is bouyancy control and is diving. The idea is to make their first dive enjoyable and fun, not a traumatic grueling test.

I'm not sure I would qualify "going down, swimming, and coming up" as buoyancy control. All that shows is they learned how to work the autoinflator.

 

[Walter]

Yet thousands of people do this every single day of the year, except instead of calling it cw1 and ow1 they call it a resort course, and it is not hard, it is easy and enjoyable.

Mike, they go down they swim around and they come up, that is bouyancy control and is diving.

Under PADI standards, doesn't the instructor actually inflate and deflate the student's BC, except when they are at the surface?

 

[markfm]

Too bad there isn't a forum, preferably flame free, for the pros to haggle over the sequencing of the standards they teach to, methods used, technologies.

Many of these posts are way down in the mud, concerning open water -- far too low a level for a new person, someone just considering taking up the sport, to get much out of, beyond perhaps "Different instructors and orgs do have different approaches to sequencing, the use of computers vs. tables, duration of classes, and the utility of some of the intro pre-OW classes. The particular Instructor will often make a big difference -- talk to them, try to talk to some of their prior students.".

Experienced non-pros may get entertainment value (the popcorn smileys), but the I2I exchanges just seem out of place (absolutely valid conversations, mind you, just a somewhat pro-focused discussion). Hopefully all of the pros are dedicated to the concept of teaching safely, though certainly can disagree on the value of certain items and when/how to teach them, truly love the sport (else why are they pros).

Ahh, well, just my $0.02.

 

[Walter]

Too bad there isn't a forum, preferably flame free, for the pros to haggle over the sequencing of the standards they teach to, methods used, technologies.

There is. This is not the type of discussion that takes place there.

 

[markfm]

Ahh -- this one is a kinda-sorta rehash of the conversation from A&I that ended up getting split off into its own thread. Kind of like the troops are fighting multiple skirmishes.

I wish the pro section had a flame zone, too, one where the Instructors could do these threads. Reading the instructors-and-standards-wars threads could end up making people think they should avoid SCUBA at all costs, since clearly the standards are terrible, the majority of Instructors must be ignorant and shoddily trained, and we're all about to die. Personally, I like diving, believe the majority of Instructors are indeed doing a decent job (though everyone would like more time, and $, to teach longer classes), and the orgs do have mechanisms to report those who are really missing the boat, violating standards.

Anyhow, TGIF, diving this weekend -- I get to go with a newly certified OW, my regular buddy will be diving with someone also pretty inexperienced -- it's always a thrill to introduce people to new dive sites, see them get pumped up. Odds are that they'll both be alive, unharmed, and happy, at the end of the dives

 

[SpencerJackson]

There was a 50 yd swim, about 5 minutes of tread water and no pushups There was no emergency out of air ascent.

So, have standards "slipped"? Can you learn everything in 2 days? These are two complete different questions...

It is possible to learn the physical aspects of entry level diving in 2 days. Remember, teh empahsis now is on continuing education as opposed to the old days where one class as all you took. I am curious which agency you took this class with...PADI standards still require a 200 yd swim, 10 tread and a controlled emergency swimming ascent...maybe a time to call the mothership and report your instructor....

 

[Walter]

I wish the pro section had a flame zone, too, one where the Instructors could do these threads. Reading the instructors-and-standards-wars threads could end up making people think they should avoid SCUBA at all costs, since clearly the standards are terrible, the majority of Instructors must be ignorant and shoddily trained, and we're all about to die.

There's no need for this type of discussion there. Everyone there has made their choices. This type of discussion reenforces the concept of buyer beware. After reading these threads, if you want fast and cheap, you know how to find it; if you prefer quality, you know how to find it. Consumer Awareness is the primary purpose of this type of discussion. Hiding these threads would eliminate their primary benefit.