Have training standards "slipped"?

[Mako Mark]

yeah, I think that their survival depends more on staying afloat than the distance they can travel.

OTOH, I think is hard to measure someones survivability by swimming or floating, I have only heard of one instance of dive gear being found and the divers not (and that case has serious irregularities).

If there was a better way to measure comfort in the water, I would go for it as divers have ready access to floatation, they only die when they dont use it.

There was a case here in NZ last year where a guy floated around the Cook Straight for about four days and he was fine (except for the hypothermia, dehydration, sunburn and low blood pressure). Could he have swum or tread water for that lenght of time, absolutely not. Divers surviving on the surface has little to do with swimming ability IMO.

I may be wrong, but in the origonal thread I am sure I heard that the lady was a competitive swimmer, yet that didnt manage to overcome the problem.

 

[TheRedHead]

Seems to me that staying afloat is dependent upon having air in your BC/wing.

 

[The Chairman]

Seems to me that staying afloat is dependent upon having air in your BC/wing.

They don't get a BC and they don't get a wet suit.

For my classes (both NAUI and SDI) I have them show me that they can swim. Sometimes this is 200 yards, sometimes it's only a 100. Then they they have to do a fifteen minute survival swim (tread water) and answer my questions at the same time. Finally, they have to swim 25 ft under water. By this time I KNOW who is comfortable in the water and who needs work.

 

[TheRedHead]

My comment was in reference to Mark's anecdote of a 4 day float.

I agree that diving is mostly mental.

 

[Geoff_H]

I agree that diving is mostly mental.

and

I think everyone should be required to do an 800 yard power swim.

Tough to reconcile these two statements.

Diving is not always an extreme sport, you don't need to be fit to dive a number of locations.... here in Japan I see a little old lady diving quite often - must be in her 70's or 80's. She manages to go shore diving just fine.

Equally there is not too much exertion required for boat diving in many tropical locations.... fall into the water, swim about in high visibility low current areas then surface and get picked up by the boat.

On the flip side, there is plenty of diving you can do in strong currents, long surface swims, entry/exit through strong surf where you do need to be fit and strong to be safe.

Will being fit make you a better diver - yes - it will improve your diving just like it improves every aspect of your life?

Will being unfit preclude you from diving - no way - there are plenty of dive spots in the world where you can be safe and have a great time.

 

[Thalassamania]

and



Tough to reconcile these two statements.

Diving is not always an extreme sport, you don't need to be fit to dive a number of locations.... here in Japan I see a little old lady diving quite often - must be in her 70's or 80's. She manages to go shore diving just fine.

Equally there is not too much exertion required for boat diving in many tropical locations.... fall into the water, swim about in high visibility low current areas then surface and get picked up by the boat.

On the flip side, there is plenty of diving you can do in strong currents, long surface swims, entry/exit through strong surf where you do need to be fit and strong to be safe.

Will being fit make you a better diver - yes - it will improve your diving just like it improves every aspect of your life?

Will being unfit preclude you from diving - no way - there are plenty of dive spots in the world where you can be safe and have a great time.

We're not talking about fitness (I don't think) we're talking about basic watermanship and comfort in the water.

BTW: "Safe" means "without risk." I have to take exception to your last sentence.

 

[Azza]

Seems to me that staying afloat is dependent upon having air in your BC/wing.

If you are refering to the case Mark is talking about then no...his BCD had nothing to do with it as he ditched after the first day...his wetsuit kept him buoyant.
I can swim and have been able to since I was old enough to walk but I never use my swimming skills in diving....in fact I hate seeing divers using their arms underwater...

 

[Mako Mark]

If you are refering to the case Mark is talking about then no...his BCD had nothing to do with it as he ditched after the first day...his wetsuit kept him buoyant....

Azza, without looking it up, why would a trained Navy diver dump his floatation device????? I thought he kept it with him, including his catch bag and his kina.

if you have links to the details post them to clear my lack of memory up.

that aside, a seven mm two piece is considered a flotation device in my book even if he did ditch his gear.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I'm glad we cleared that up. I was beginning to worry.

The real issue that Mike has with the training agencies is the Holy Grail he calls "Neutral Buoyancy". They simply don't teach it the way he wants them to!

Actually, some agencies barely require it at all and don't require it in a diving context..but we've recently been over this where I quoted right from the standards for you. the issue isn't how they teach it, it's whether or not they teach it.

All skills must be accomplished mid water or you will surely die. Just check all of those diving accidents! 99.9999 percent of them can be attributed to a lack of buoyancy control.

You of all people must realize that I've never said anything like this. In fact, I often point out that one can drop to the bottom, walk around and climb back out and rarely get hurt by it.

However, yo use real numbers, buoyancy control problems are reported in over 40% of the dives that result in fatality and usually over 60% of the dives that result in injury...per past DAN reports.

While those numbers don't directly establish a causal relationship it sure looks like a factor.

Swep it under the table or ignore it all you want.

Those accidents on the highway? Again, if the driver had been able to tune that radio mid-water, this NEVER would have happened. What? The DVM doesn't even TEST for tuning the radio, much less while being mid-water? Scandalous!

I guess that was supposed to be funny?

If you don't like the way the agencies do things, then by all means CREATE a new agency. But don't shoot them for making OW training economically viable for at least a few instructors.

I don't shoot them down for making diving economical. I shoot them down for having standards that permit diving to be taught poorly.

I'll explain again, I don't start an agency because I don't think we need more agencies and because starting an agency would be a really poor business move with the resources I have available and the current market.

 

[The Chairman]

Mike,

Much of that post such as "All skills must be accomplished mid water or you will surely die." was satyrical in nature. In using that device I am trying to diplay the truth: that sometimes you obsess over that.

I am sure that there are MANY injuries caused by lack of buoyancy control and much of them have to do with colliding with fire coral and the like. Those people learn how to do that QUICKLY. A lack of BUOYANCY probably accounts for the majority of deaths and injuries on the surface as well. I doubt you can produce a significant number of accidents that occured because someone could not remove and replace their weight belt mid water. Or their mask. Or their BC. Or find their regs.