Have training standards "slipped"?

[The Chairman]

BCs require good technique to really work properly (I'm not talking your run of the mill up and down usage, I mean good, perfect technique). This takes practice, experience, and time in the water.

But you HAVE the instruction manual dude! Use the force! Do or not do, there is no "try".

Regulators, I personally feel, are a bit more intricate than computers if you are really in tune with your gear.

That breathe in, breathe out technique takes a LOT of work. I truly see what you mean. I should spend HOURS teaching my students how exhale properly.

Computers, on the other hand, operate by button pushing and (usually) automagically do their thing.

There you go! Forget that alarm that's pissing the rest of us off! So, it takes an instructor to coach you how to breathe in and breathe out, but you should be able to intuit all those freakin' fields. Minutes to deco, my current PO2, my depth, my average depth, my ascent rate. Gee there's NOTHING to this but punching buttons. But breathing that reg really requires a great instructor!

 

[TheRedHead]

No, the new diver should think twice about doing trust-me dives. I can do a 100 ft dive with a run-time of a LOT longer than 45 minutes without the computer or the DM. If the new divers kept his/her diving within limits that they understand, then they wouldn't need the computer or the DM either.

But they are not doing that. It's like telling the teenager they can't drink until they are 21. :shakehead

 

[MikeFerrara]

So do regulators and BCs. What a dangerous concept: learn how to use your Scuba Gear with no instructor!

I think you're talking crazy. I've baught lots of bc's and regs since the I last took a class. Do you need an instructor to teach you how to use a new reg?

 

[The Chairman]

For the cost of the two computers you can get at least one more dive vacation. After a vacation or two diving without a computer, you realize just how little value there is to the computers and you can do something better with your money.

I keep a palm pilot with decompression software in my bag

For the cost of the two palm pilots you can get at least one more dive vacation. And a FAR better vacation than you can get for two Veo 250s!

 

[TheRedHead]

You've crossed a line here - NDL means just that. The recreational standard of not entering NDL is paramount.

And, we care, and correctly teach, those divers of whom we can...

No, it's not that line. It's a way of multi-level diving by depth averaging in your head. It's not that difficult.

I think you guys should teach students that you can clear a deco obligation on a well planned multi-level dive. You're not going to DIE with 2 minutes of deco which will clear when you spend the remainder of your dive in a nicely curving profile.

 

[Mako Mark]

No, the new diver should think twice about doing trust-me dives. I can do a 100 ft dive with a run-time of a LOT longer than 45 minutes without the computer or the DM. If the new divers kept his/her diving within limits that they understand, then they wouldn't need the computer or the DM either.

Stop beating around the bush Mike, you know you want to say it, so say it, stop waiting for someone to drag it out of you....

You too RedHead, explain the secret handshake to the board

 

[Walter]

I have a set of both dive tables, but we use the NAUI. We were asked to use PADI tables on our most recent dive trip, and were given the PADI dive table. I prefer to be on the 'safer' side, so I'll stick with the NAUI tables, but now I do know how to use both, and know that they are not interchangeable.

I'm glad to hear it. You are going to be (if you aren't already) a fine diver.

So do regulators and BCs. What a dangerous concept: learn how to use your Scuba Gear with no instructor!

Pete, we can use any BC or regulator ever made. I have no idea how many computers are available, but I do know there are many, many different ways to use them and depending on which computer I get, I may or may not know how it works. When a student shows up with an unfamiliar computer, how do you teach him how it works? You either don't or you read the manual. Does being an instructor somehow make us better at reading computer manuals? Frankly, I wouldn't expect any instructor to know all computers, no matter how good he is.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Mike, we both know that you don't need a dive computer or tables to do a simple recreational dive. There are many divers here that don't. I'm talking about random divers on dive boats. If they run into a situation that is outside of their tables, they will just shuck them and follow the DM, 100% of the time. That has been my experience wandering around the Caribbean diving with strangers. Hell, I've witnessed only a couple of divers ever talk planning, and many of them very experienced divers. It's very discouraging.

I know that stuff happens often but it isn't an equipment problem, it's one of bad habits

 

[SparticleBrane]

But you HAVE the instruction manual dude! Use the force! Do or not do, there is no "try".
That breathe in, breathe out technique takes a LOT of work. I truly see what you mean. I should spend HOURS teaching my students how exhale properly.

There you go! Forget that alarm that's pissing the rest of us off! So, it takes an instructor to coach you how to breathe in and breathe out, but you should be able to intuit all those freakin' fields. Minutes to deco, my current PO2, my depth, my average depth, my ascent rate. Gee there's NOTHING to this but punching buttons. But breathing that reg really requires a great instructor!

You are seriously misconstruing what I'm saying.
I never said you need an instructor to teach you how to use a reg. I said that with experience you will essentially learn the nuances of your own personal gear. For example -- use one reg set long enough and in enough positions and settings and you'll know exactly how it breathes with a particular adjustment. You can't get that from an instructor. You can only get that from experience.

If someone can't read a manual to a dive computer and figure out what it all means (especially after a thorough introduction to tables and other basic diving concepts such as partial pressure and ascent rate) then said person must be seriously lacking in mental facilities.

edit: On that note, I've never had an instruction manual come with any of my wings. Although there is this little note: "This wing-style BC should be used only after proper certification of instruction on the use of buoyancy control devices has been completed."

 

[TheRedHead]

I know that stuff happens often but it isn't an equipment problem, it's one of bad habits

True, but I look at this way: it is better to be a fool with an artificial brain and than fool with no brain at all.