Have training standards "slipped"?

[cudachaser]

I teach that in all OW classes

Buddy breathing and unconscious diver? In a basic OW class? What org did you train with? (No, it's not the norm overall, today. Out of air drill, using your buddy's safe second is the norm, with buddy breathing [sharing a single regulator between two people] at most an "option", pretty rarely taught at the intro level; it's much simpler to stress not to dive with a buddy that doesn't have a working safe second, and that checking that is part of your surface prep. Surfacing an unconscious diver is a Rescue scenario.)

 

[MikeFerrara]

Dive shops here are required by law to ask for a c-card when filling air or selling gear..
In one way, I find that to be reassuring, as Ive got friends thats definetly foolhardy enough to go grab a tank and go down under with zero clue of air consumption differences from surface to 100 feet, narcosis, oxtox and the works. Some of them nearly got killed playing with explosives (despite my fairly qualified (ive got EOD training and they proved me right too) warnings.) and definetly would be liable to get themselves killed under water as well..
Im not saying that I dont run a risk of getting killed under water despite the fact that I can show a c-card, but atleast Ive signed papers stating that Im SUPPOSED to know what Im doing.
Reality however is that most shops dont ask any questions if you come in with a tank and ask to get it filled. Id actually be more than happy to show them a c-card to prove that atleast ive been given basic training in the use of the gear I want to buy or the gas I wish to fill..

Are you required to have a scuba certification to buy a compressor in your country? How about a boat? Gas from an industrial gas suppler (like a welding supply house)? I know you can buy equipment over the internet...no?

the c-card stuff is total BS. I'm all for good training but I hate the certification thing with a passion. It's because divers are buying access that they are willing to buy a card even when the training is lousy. If training and certifications were optional no one would pay for it unless they saw value in the training. It's just a racket.

 

[Tigerman]

Are you required to have a scuba certification to buy a compressor in your country? How about a boat? Gas from an industrial gas suppler (like a welding supply house)? I know you can buy equipment over the internet...no?

the c-card stuff is total BS. I'm all for good training but I hate the certification thing with a passion. It's because divers are buying access that they are willing to buy a card even when the training is lousy. If training and certifications were optional no one would pay for it unless they saw value in the training. It's just a racket.

If your child was to jump in the water with his new scuba gear, would you rather have him poorly trained or not trained at all?
I know Id rather have a poor diver on my estate than a diver with no training whatsoever.. The poorly trained are still better trained than the untrained. (No, im not talking uncertified, im talking untrained)

 

[MikeFerrara]

It's always amazed me that the agencies promulgate an emergency procedure like an arm sweep that does not have a 100% guaranteed outcome. We teach left hand under the tank and right hand up and over the shoulder to the regulator first stage were the intermediate pressure hose comes off. We've had a few students over the years who, due to orthopedic considerations, needed to develop flexibility or work out an alternate plan, but it was good for them to learn that.

again, I agree and I used to teach both the arm sweep and the over the shoulder reach as methods of finding the reg but...I also taught that grabing a backup or a buddies reg was the way to get something to breath right away.

Of course, I also taught that with a long hose properly routed a droped reg is usually right off your right shoulder and real easy to find...and a bungied backup is always right in front of your face. LOL What is it they say about good divers using good planning judgement to avoid needing good skills or something like that. For practice, make it hard but for the game make it a no-brainer.

 

[Thalassamania]

Let me know if I got this right..
You "grab the bottomn of the tank" with the left hand and take the right hand to the first stage and follow the hose outwards to the second?
Im asking because having tried the arm sweep while hovering and found to be.. "less than perfect"..

Left hand under the tank to give it a little lift.
Right hand over the top of the hoses at the first stage. If they're not attached there you've got more trouble than you thought.
Straighten your right arm out permitting the hoses to slip though your finger.
Find something that feels like a second stage, purge it and get it into your mouth.

You do need some flexibility. Bungied second seems to be the consensus.

 

[Tigerman]

Left hand under the tank to give it a little lift.
Right hand over the top of the hoses at the first stage. If they're not attached there you've got more trouble than you thought.
Straighten your right arm out permitting the hoses to slip though your finger.
Find something that feels like a second stage, purge it and get it into your mouth.

You do need some flexibility. Bungied second seems to be the consensus.

Basically what I thought you meant then.. Being able to grab the valve, I should be able to grab the hoses too.. I now know what Im going to try on my next dive, thanks.

 

[MikeFerrara]

If your child was to jump in the water with his new scuba gear, would you rather have him poorly trained or not trained at all?

I'll take door number three.

I know Id rather have a poor diver on my estate than a diver with no training whatsoever.. The poorly trained are still better trained than the untrained. (No, im not talking uncertified, im talking untrained)

You didn't answer any of my questions but I'll answer yours. I'm not so sure I agree. IME, the person who would attempt diving with no training at all can probably pull it off better than the shmuck who fell for the marketing, baught a card and has had poor training but otherwise wouldn't even consider getting in the water. The cheap, easy to get cards and pretty adds are what is getting all these couch potatoes in the water thinking that they know how to dive. I've pulled enough people out of the drink that I'd MUCH rather have nothing than what we have now.

 

[The Chairman]

We must do the sweep differently. All my students perform this horizontally and it works just fine with short hoses. I call your "over the shoulder" the Elvis move. They brush their hair back as they find the hose beind their head. Either way works well mid water.

I have to admit that I see why so many instructors need a LOT of time. Their classes lack focus and they bore their students to tears. My NAUI ITC was incredibly anal about not wasting a student's time.

 

[Tigerman]

Yes, I can buy a compressor, and I know people who have used a regular industrial compressor to fill uncleaned gas cylinders with dirty air and taken it down and used it to breathe.. Thank god it wasnt a big cylinder so they didnt get very deep.
Yes, you can buy a boat and yes, you can buy gear online, but atleast that takes a bit more thinking through than just seeing a dive shop and going "hey, that looks like a great idea".

Yes, I know people who would go pass the written test and the pool and ow dives and forget it all in a week and not bothering to open the books or practicing the skills ever again, but those people would probably be the same people who would just grab the gear and jump in without thinking any more of it.

Taking door three I would assume you mean "Id preferr my child to be well trained" and thats of course a no-brainer. Its also why Im trying to both think for myself and look for things to improve, like the less than perfect reg sweep that I can easilly see someone not being very confident under water and having to not breathe for a while panicing from if it fails..
When I failed sweeping in my reg, the reason I didnt get stressed was simply that I have always been confident under water without breeding, largely thanks to always enjoying swimming and snorkeling..

We must do the sweep differently. All my students perform this horizontally and it works just fine with short hoses. I call your "over the shoulder" the Elvis move. They brush their hair back as they find the hose beind their head. Either way works well mid water.

I have to admit that I see why so many instructors need a LOT of time. Their classes lack focus and they bore their students to tears. My NAUI ITC was incredibly anal about not wasting a student's time.

I hate wasting time myself.. If I go somewhere to learn how to dive, I dont need to hear about how nice the green wetsuit looks under water, I need to hear what the difference is between the green wetsuit and the blue drysuit and even that I dont need to hear in detail. All i need to know is that drysuits keep you dry and allow clothing underneath to dive in colder water than wetsuits are comfortable. Lets move on to dive planning..

 

[TheRedHead]

Basically what I thought you meant then.. Being able to grab the valve, I should be able to grab the hoses too.. I now know what Im going to try on my next dive, thanks.

Bungee the alternate. That's too much futzing. You don't need any hands with a bungee. Very handy when you are blowing like a flag, hanging on an upline.