Have training standards "slipped"?

[TSandM]

You know, I don't know if training has gotten less rigorous, because I didn't train a long time ago. My husband has had two different classes, thirty years apart, but they were very different classes. One was a university, semester-long class, and the other was a commercial modern class, and they're simply not comparable.

And I don't know how training is everywhere, but I know what I saw in my class, I know what happened to me, and I know what I see at the dive sites where I dive -- often -- and the vacation sites where I go. People aren't coming out of training with basic skills. I agree with Mike about this. The ability to place yourself where you want to be in the water and maintain that position seems frighteningly central to diving to me, and yet few people can do it. That means they can't maintain contact with their buddies during ascent and descent, for example, and if they try to stop and look at something, they end up finning frantically and disturbing the bottom or damaging things. I also think a lot of people don't have a very good time diving at first (or maybe ever) because they just don't feel as though they're in control of very much underwater. I know I didn't.

I feel VERY strongly about this, which is why I try to reach out to new divers when I find them on this, or other boards, and offer to dive with them and share with them some of the great tips I got from Bob and others when I was starting out in this sport. Interestingly, I don't get a huge response. A lot of people say they'd like to go out, but then never seem to have time. It makes me a little sad, because I think more people would be utterly hooked by diving if they were just a little better at it. And it's not that hard to reach a point where you feel somewhat more in control of what's happening when you dive. It just takes somebody to help you figure out how.

 

[agilis]

NetDoc, I have a question. If teaching something dangerous is stupid, does it follow that teaching something stupid is dangerous? I have a feeling that in the wonderful world of dive training the latter situation is more common than the former.

 

[The Chairman]

Being OOA is dangerous and trying to breath water is stupid but buddy breathing can save your life.

One mistake during your training scenario and you have an embolism. It's just not worth the risk, which is why NAUI prohibits an instructor from doing buddy breathing while ascending. Far better to teach gas management and to check ALL equipment thoroughly before diving (including octos).

ok, 200 ft on air is stupid but what do you think of going to 165 on air?

I don't think that this is a part of PADI's OW training. I am not even partial to 130 ft!

 

[The Chairman]

NetDoc, I have a question. If teaching something dangerous is stupid, does it follow that teaching something stupid is dangerous? I have a feeling that in the wonderful world of dive training the latter situation is more common than the former.

Works for me.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Here's something I would like to see changed in training: the regulator sweep. Why not go for the alternate FIRST. I've seen several people almost panic sweeping for their reg and not even thinking about their alternate. I had to pull one out of a gumball holder and stick it in a guy's face because he didn't remember he had it. Thankfully it worked. How many alternates are full of muck and don't work? And breathing it on the surface doesn't guarantee it will work when you need it. Everyone should breathe their alternate early on every dive or you may end up buddy breathing, even though the diver may not be prepared for that either.

Regulator recovery is one of the skills that is ALL hosed up. first of all, that stupid arm swwp is kind of designed for a vertical diver who isn't moving or in current. Right, it assumes that the reg is going to fall "down". Second, the only real emergency is not being able to breath. The one thing that will get almost anybody panicing is not being able to breath when they need to. The best way to make sure that no one panics is to make sure that everyone is breathing. When someone can't breath the ABSOLUTE PRIORITY is to get that diver breathing.

In terms of self rescue that means that if you lose a reg, you grab your alternate and straighten out your sloppy gear AFTER you have something to breath! The problem is that this depends on the fact that you know where the other one is and that it's working. That's why we put our backup under our chin on a necklace and not handing on a scumball someplace!

In a team situation, it means that when someone has nothing to breath for any reason that you remedy it FAST! Which is why we are so quick to extend that long hose or whatever reg we are breathing at the time.

Assuming reasonable gas management, most OOA situations are temporary but heading them off quickly is critical.

You are right, none of this is usually taught and kneeling on the bottom, blowing bubbles and sweeping is NOT the answer! At least they could ask students to do it hovering. LOL

 

[agilis]

The observations and experiences of TSandM are the same as mine. Some thrashing and flailing and goggle-eyed near panic seems pretty much the norm on many resort dives, so I try to keep my distance, making these dives as nearly solo as possible.

Giving advice in print, or on dry land is fine. I'd rather not 'mentor' anyone in the water, though. There are way too many certified divers out there who are diving scared most of the time.

 

[MikeFerrara]

One mistake during your training scenario and you have an embolism. It's just not worth the risk, which is why NAUI prohibits an instructor from doing buddy breathing while ascending. Far better to teach gas management and to check ALL equipment thoroughly before diving (including octos).

Well, myself and buddies had our near embolisms on real dives with no instructor to help us. They didn't have anything to do with buddy breathing but simpler stuff like losing control because of things like flooded masks that we couldn't handle midwater. Until the agencies address this, there just isn't much in their judgement that's going to impress me.

ok, 200 ft on air is stupid but what do you think of going to 165 on air?

I don't think that this is a part of PADI's OW training. I am not even partial to 130 ft![/QUOTE]

Get yourself a copy of the PADI/DSAT tec-rec standards and you'll see. 165 on air/nitrox.

Other tech agencies still have those 170 ft on air courses but they also have rec trimix and normoxic trimix courses and options that allow course combinations such that deep air is no longer required. With IANTD, I think you can get through the whole thing now without ever having an END below about 80 ft. DSAT/PADI is one notable acception and to get through their tech courses, there just isn't any way around it.

The other agencies had to make changes to address this. The DSAT programs are pretty new and were designed like this from the start.

PADI may not have any interest in teaching divers to control their position in the water (even the divers in the tec-rec materials are kneeling) but the think they can teach them to deal with narcosis.

Pete, I know that you and I don't agree on everything but if we credit the largest and most successful agencies with any credability, you and I are both wrong. LOL but hey, look at the bright side. If divers are going to be at 165 narced out of their minds, you might get me to agree that the stupid beepers on the computers are a good thing.

 

[Thalassamania]

Regulator recovery is one of the skills that is ALL hosed up. first of all, that stupid arm swwp is kind of designed for a vertical diver who isn't moving or in current. Right, it assumes that the reg is going to fall "down". Second, the only real emergency is not being able to breath. The one thing that will get almost anybody panicing is not being able to breath when they need to. The best way to make sure that no one panics is to make sure that everyone is breathing. When someone can't breath the ABSOLUTE PRIORITY is to get that diver breathing.

In terms of self rescue that means that if you lose a reg, you grab your alternate and straighten out your sloppy gear AFTER you have something to breath! The problem is that this depends on the fact that you know where the other one is and that it's working. That's why we put our backup under our chin on a necklace and not handing on a scumball someplace!

In a team situation, it means that when someone has nothing to breath for any reason that you remedy it FAST! Which is why we are so quick to extend that long hose or whatever reg we are breathing at the time.

Assuming reasonable gas management, most OOA situations are temporary but heading them off quickly is critical.

You are right, none of this is usually taught and kneeling on the bottom, blowing bubbles and sweeping is NOT the answer! At least they could ask students to do it hovering. LOL

Having student with confident breath hold skills (blowing bubbles of course) helps too.

 

[Doubles]

The observations and experiences of TSandM are the same as mine. Some thrashing and flailing and goggle-eyed near panic seems pretty much the norm on many resort dives, so I try to keep my distance, making these dives as nearly solo as possible.

Giving advice in print, or on dry land is fine. I'd rather not 'mentor' anyone in the water, though. There are way too many certified divers out there who are diving scared most of the time.

ahh yes resort dives - I have a love/hate relationship with those. But it was a resort dive that put me into the poorhouse (replace with diving).

There are good instructors and bad instructors. It would be great if there were some simple way to get rid of the bad instructors. Biggest problem there would be with the definition of bad instructor.

The bigger problem I see is with the diver who makes 5 or 6 dives a year, never takes a refresher course and hasn't practiced so much as an air share since their ow class. It would be nice if someone checked log books before renting gear or allowing a diver in the water unsupervised - but that isn't a training standards issue. And of course the minute there was some universal enforcement, then divers would just fudge their logs.

Maybe I'm just picking the right dive boats to go out on. There are 20 divers on the boats that I use. Out of those 20, I see maybe 1 or 2 divers that can't stay off the bottom. The other 18 are far from perfect, but there not floundering in the reef either. That's 10%. 1 diver floundering on the bottom is 1 too many. I just don't see a reasonable solution for the 10% that I personally witness who don't have any buoyancy control at all.

-s

 

[MikeFerrara]

I feel VERY strongly about this, which is why I try to reach out to new divers when I find them on this, or other boards, and offer to dive with them and share with them some of the great tips I got from Bob and others when I was starting out in this sport. Interestingly, I don't get a huge response. A lot of people say they'd like to go out, but then never seem to have time. It makes me a little sad, because I think more people would be utterly hooked by diving if they were just a little better at it. And it's not that hard to reach a point where you feel somewhat more in control of what's happening when you dive. It just takes somebody to help you figure out how.

My experience is similar. When I was charging for my time, I had divers come from several states away for nitrox classes though we spent most of the time working on plain old diving stuff. I had one guy pay me to do a couple of dives with him in Ohio before a trip he hjad planned though it wan't a class and there was no certification issued. Had another guy come from Il to do a nitrox class and he already knew it all and he was even good in the water but he had lots of other questions.

Now, I just offer to dive with folks and I don't charge a dime. I would do it just to help and for an excuss to dive. I've seen all these sites a million times and it isn't even worth the work to load the truck just to see them again.

but...I don't get many takers. Maybe I'm too blunt online and people just don't like me I'm going to go eat worms.

I guess all you can do is offer.