In fact the original poster, JJ, did open with a mention of a service issue. In fairness to his thread perhaps this discussion about manufacturers' pricing policies could be split out so it doesn't look like a rip solely at JJ et al.
I'd really like to explore this accusation of pricing "collusion" further, and hopefully get some input from the folks who are actually involved in running the industry, rather than basing our discussion on assumptions, suppositions and wishful thinking as it has been so far, with the possible exception of Mike F.
Genesis argues eloquently, and in fact probably is right about some parts of it, but I wish he'd see that his zeal taints the credibility of much of what he argues. I'd like to try to get him to take a deep breath, step back a pace, and then start again without the sweeping inclusion of anyone and everyone in the biz as a baddy. I know enough LDS's personally to say that they're not all evil greedy bastidges. In fact I can honestly say that I don't personally know anyone in the business that I would classify as a crook, or a collusionist. By and large, they're just regular folks trying like hell to make the shop work, and with no huge amount of success. The business is damned tough for a little guy. Overhead and low purchasing power eats up pretty much any chance he has of making a buck, or at least more than a buck. In fact, in many cases these folks have to have an outside job to subsidize the dive biz.
I'd be interested in hearing what some experienced shop owners and instructors have to say about the profit potential in the different departments (retail sales, training, gas fills, service and warranty work) given the existing conditions under which the majority have to work today. Ideally it would be enlightening to find out what margins most small shops work on for gear, air and training. My suspicion is that if folks knew the real numbers and the true profit potential for the little guys they'd realize that this is the wrong pony to flog. You're trying to get blood from a stone here.
But that leads us to the manufacturers and distributors. What kind of inside dirt can we get on them. Will any be willing to cough up some honest numbers on their retained dollars. It may come as a surprise to some consumers who aren't familiar with manufacturing and distribution to see how much it costs to support the infrastructure of the business. JJ alluded briefly to it in one of his posts. From his comment one can infer that significant price reductions at that level would have a serious effect on the product that reaches the end user. Easy enough to refute that point, but perhaps there are some realities here that even Genesis hasn't uncovered with his investigation. The actual hard cost of manufacturing is only a fraction of the product cost by the time it's in the consumer's hands. And the costs continue to mount after the sale.
Anyway. I shouldn't be trying to argue all my points here. I think this issue of distribution and pricing is worth some discussion, if for no other reason than that I'm selfish about having new toys. If we drive the LDS's out of business, then who's gonna buy the new product? Rumour has it, although I'm not aware that it's been substantiated (another point for discussion and revelation), that companies like LP don't always buy from the manufacturer but rather from distributors and even other dealers. One can only assume that they don't pay one hundred cents on the wholesale dollar. Therefore, how long will manufacturers continue to research and develop new gear if they can't show their investors a reasonable return on investment. Following this train of thought we will eventually have a bunch of divers with no gear. The mind boggles at the possibilities for DIY here.
There. Somewhere in that mess I tried to make reference to service a few times, and kept the P-word lower case. Perhaps there's not enough interest to pursue this here and that's okay. Genesis and I can chuck rocks by email if we have to. 8)
JohnF
