Halcyon Backplate Question

[Uncle Pug]

Ron... I wasn't challenging the folks who have posted in this thread... only asking to see if anyone had a reason that they would recommend a 55# instead of a 70#.

I am interested also in what you would consider to be overkill and/or why the extra lift capacity available would be detrimental.

Of course there is a point behind my question. Many folks just recommend what they use and use what they do because it was recommended.

 

[salty]

Yea, I didn’t think you were challenging anyone. My guess is that you want people to think about there choice and know why they are using the gear they are.

The size of the wing should be based on the required lift to offset the weight of your gear with out the buoyancy of the exposure protection. If you start off trying to achieve a balanced rig the goal would be to use the smallest wing necessary.

I just wonder what gear configuration/ failure would warrant a wing with 70 pounds of lift. As far as which is better / worse...I don’t know and have never put too much thought into it but off hand I would think that an oversized wing doesn’t provide any advantage. The one disadvantage that I can think of is if something along the lines of an auto inflate problem developed you now must deal with additional lift. Overcoming 55 pounds is better than 70 pounds not by much but why take the chance. Also the smaller the wing the faster it will hit max capacity and start to dump through the overpressure relief.

 

[Uncle Pug]

My guess is that you want people to think about there choice and know why they are using the gear they are.

That is correct. Let's put some thinking into this.

The size of the wing should be based on the required lift to offset the weight of your gear with out the buoyancy of the exposure protection. If you start off trying to achieve a balanced rig the goal would be to use the smallest wing necessary.

Sounds like you are parroting something you read on the internet to me. You should think about this for yourself. Ask, "Is this true and if so, why is it true?"

I just wonder what gear configuration/ failure would warrant a wing with 70 pounds of lift.

Do you buddy dive?

As far as which is better / worse...I don’t know and have never put too much thought into it

I know... that is why we are having this discussion.

but off hand I would think that an oversized wing doesn’t provide any advantage. The one disadvantage that I can think of is if something along the lines of an auto inflate problem developed you now must deal with additional lift. Overcoming 55 pounds is better than 70 pounds not by much but why take the chance. Also the smaller the wing the faster it will hit max capacity and start to dump through the overpressure relief.

So... you would handle an auto inflate problem by letting the wing inflate to the point the relief valve could take over and keep the wing at maximum inflation? Do you think there might be a better way to handle this?

 

[Peo]

I am thinking about moving from my 70 pound Halcyon to a 55 pound Halcyon for two reasons:

1) I've never felt the need for all the buoyancy in the 70 pound wing (and I dive in the same Puget Sound and conditions as Uncle Pug with stage and soon a scooter on occasion), so why have it there?

2) As Uncle Pug pointed out, the 70 pound wing is a little bit longer. This has two consequences for me:
a) A 50 pound wing would balance me better trim-wise
b) The long hose is more difficult to hook around the canister with the hose
"behind" the wing; a 55 pound wing ends above the canister and makes the
hose position a bit more stable.

 

[salty]

Sounds like you are parroting something you read on the internet to me. You should think about this for yourself. Ask, "Is this true and if so, why is it true?"?

Nope made it up myself

Do you buddy dive?

Yes, and even with stages and deco gas I have never inflated my wing to the point were I have needed it all to get neutral. Based on my experience I do not believe that it would take more than a 55lb wing to get myself and my buddy off the bottom and on our way if he no longer was able to add gas to his wing.

So... you would handle an auto inflate problem by letting the wing inflate to the point the relief valve could take over and keep the wing at maximum inflation? Do you think there might be a better way to handle this?

That’s not what I was implying and I think it’s a stretch to come to that conclusion from what I wrote. To clarify my point the 70-pound wing would achieve a larger amount of lift than a 55-pound wing. In a worst case situation (although rare) a sudden auto inflate would be limited by the wing size. It will be better to deal with the 55-pound wing verse the 70 especialy if the 70 was not needed.

Now by no way am I implying there is no need for a 70 pound wing but I have yet to see justification for it and as stated earlier the 55 seems to work for cold water, doubles/drysuit and multiple stage/deco bottles.

As much as you are concerned with divers who are getting gear just because they read on the internet so and so uses it I am concermed with the trend of bigger is better which is the tone in which I read the inital post.

Ron

 

[Uncle Pug]

Peo... you should be able to trim out a 40# or 55# or 70# wing. Having had all three at the same time I've been able to compare them though I only dove with the 55# and the 70# wings, sold the 40# before diving it. The only time I fill the 70 is at the end of the dive... while resting on the World's Largest Water Bed. Oh... one other time... when I holed my suit at the bottom of Deception Pass and we had to wait for the current to abate before pulling ourselves back out it was nice to have the extra floatation. You state that since you've never needed the extra capacity why have it there? Why not? As for the long hose...are you putting it between wing and tank?!?

Ron, It isn't just about what you might need to get yourself off the bottom IMO ... it is also what you might need at the surface. As far as I'm concern any of the three is adequate for the dive. But personally I would prefer the 55 or 70 when it gets lumpy on the surface. I see no disadvantage to the 70 so when a friend wanted to buy one of my extras and he felt he needed the 55 I kept the 70. As for auto inflation of the wing... you are not going to be able to handle 55# positive bouyancy any more than you are going to be able to handle 70#. You need to be able to just as automatically disconnect the inflator hose while dumping any extra (and only the extra) gas that was introduced into the wing.

Of course to each his own... but it is nice to have cogent reasons given for recommendations.

 

[Doc Intrepid]

I was just on the Halcyon website, as I am looking to purchase the Halcyon Explorer (70 pd.) wings and backplate for my technical diving. My question was more of a survey as I was looking to get the opinions of DIR divers as to whether they prefer the aluminum backplate vs. the stainless steel backplate with the 6pds of lift.

Common sense makes you think that the steel is better as it takes weight off of your waist and distibutes it more, but with steel doubles I am not sure if it is necessary. I will also be using twin 80s for stage tanks. Just throwing this out there. What do people prefer?

Marc,

A mistake you may be making is a fairly common one.

It results in guys having closets full of gear they don't use.

Whether an aluminum backplate, or a 6 lb SS backplate, or a 12 lb SS backplate, (or something else) would be best for you is not merely a function of "Survey Says...?", or what 'more people preferred'...

Its a function of how much weight you personally need, and where you personally need it located to trim out properly. That in turn can be impacted by items such as:
- type of undergarment you're wearing;
- type of drysuit you're wearing;
- type of tanks you're using (or plan to purchase);
- your build;
- and other things that are individual variables.

A good place to start with as a baseline is how much weight you currently need. So far I think you've indicated:
- drysuit (shell or neo unknown; undergarment unknown)
- double steel tanks (120s or 90s - recognize these impact your weight/trim requirements differently)
- (you threw me here-) 'twin 80s as stages'? You might be diving with two 80s slung as stages from time to time, but you'd be unusual if you did it frequently (in this area). You'd be unique if you slung a twinset. You likely want to establish your initial weight/trim requirement without stage tanks, then later alter it accordingly.

The point is that particularly if you are trying to avoid a weightbelt, you have V-weights, P-weights, and the weight of the backplate itself to use as 'trim weights'. You'll likely use a combination of two of the above to meet your requirements. But, you don't know which of the two may be optimal for you until you know what those requirements are. Then, just to mess up your day, depending on things such as build and type of drysuit, you may require locating weight further out along your body to trim out properly - which could mean an aluminum plate and a weightbelt to counter an effect generated by the type of tanks you select.

It is a system. Each component of the system impacts on the others. You want to consider each of the elements as an integrated part of the whole, not go buy a backplate because more guys responded suggesting steel than suggested aluminum. Don't buy gear because it works for other people. That's how you wind up with a closet full of unused gear. Buy gear because it works for you.

You're not located far from a crew of folks in this area that could assist you to consider a number of different factors, and might be able to allow you to try different options before you lay out the cash. If interested, PM me.

 

[Peo]

Peo... you should be able to trim out a 40# or 55# or 70# wing.

I can. Nevertheless, I believe the 55# to be better balanced than the 70. Since you favor the 70# and I want a 55#, perhaps you'd like to trade if you want a backup 70#?

As for the long hose...are you putting it between wing and tank?!?

In the latest two GUE classes I've taken (Rec TriOx and Tech 1), it was taught to keep the long hose between the wing and the tank. The rationale - as I recall it - is that the hose can't get wedged between the diver and the wing, and the hose loop is more protected. Personally I may sometimes be found cheating on this... Especially since I find that the long 70# makes the hose a bit on the short side if I run it down on the "right" side of the wing.

I think my 70# wing is 3-4 inches longer than my buddies' 55# wings...

 

[Uncle Pug]

I don't have any 55# wings to trade you Peo... nor do I need a backup 70#... but thanks for thinking of me.

I'm surprised to hear that they're advising *trapping* the hose between the wing and the tank. Haven't you found that it is more difficult to release from there than the other way? The hose can't get wedged between the wing and the diver since the wing folds up against the tank on a horizontally trimmed diver.

 

[Peo]

I don't have any 55# wings to trade you Peo... nor do I need a backup 70#... but thanks for thinking of me.

I'm surprised to hear that they're advising *trapping* the hose between the wing and the tank. Haven't you found that it is more difficult to release from there than the other way? The hose can't get wedged between the wing and the diver since the wing folds up against the tank on a horizontally trimmed diver.

I also find that you need to be a lot more careful with how you deploy it. You need to do the proper "windmill" motion with your right hand, following the hose down to the bottom of the wing, and then continuing the motion backwards, pulling the hose straight up and out. If it is trapped, you may need to roll over to your left, so the air in the wing helps move it away from the tank.

Personally, I find it easier to have the hose on the other side of the wing (the front side), tuck it under the canister and be done with it. It's never gotten wedged into anything, and I never got it entangled upon something, and it is always a pleasure to donate it from that position.

But then, it's probably just a skill thing.

Anyways, back to wing size.

I know that I am properly weighted. I did a buoyancy check as late as yesterday, and I've also done the test of going down to 30 ft with full tanks and stage, emptying the wing and drysuit to absolutely nothing, and then swim the rig up to the surface.

I float comforably on the surface with only my drysuit inflation if need be.

For *me*, I don't have any arguments *for* all that lift that is in that 70# wing, but I do have some reasons for having a smaller wing. So I'll most likely 'downgrade' sometime in the future.