Halcyon 36 vs. 45?

[Genesis]

is only proper under the circumstances.

THE argument against the Halcyon 45 (and to a lesser extent the 36) was that they provided more drag than the 27, and thus were an "only if you really need it" choice.

That is due to their DESIGN.

Oxycheq changed that. Now you have a 30 (about Halcyon's 27 in lift) and a 45 (about Halcyon's 45 in lift) without the drag penalty that Halcyon's 36 and 45 assessed.

So now, the argument of "excessive drag" disappears, which renders the decision one now of "which wing would you like to cover ALL your single-tank diving?"

The answer, of course, depends on exactly WHAT single-tank diving you do!

If you dive only in a wetsuit, only in reasonably warm water (say, a 5 mil single-piece wetsuit or less) than Halcyon's 27 or Oxycheq's 30 is a great choice. Either will serve you well.

If you dive in a wetsuit AND drysuit at different times, and particularly if you dive dry with a steel tank, then the Oxy45 is a better one wing choice IMHO, simply because you pay the penalty with the Halcyon products even when you don't need to, but there is no penalty with the Oxycheq product.

 

[Ernesto]

Well then that would seem to be the problem with scuba board -- I started the thread for a particular reason and I should be able to end it.

This is the first thread I have started perhaps it is also my last.

Again, thank you to all those who responed with intelligent opinions on my question. It's time for me to move on.

 

[ColdH20diving]

Ernesto once bubbled...
Well then that would seem to be the problem with scuba board -- I started the thread for a particular reason and I should be able to end it.

This is the first thread I have started perhaps it is also my last.

Again, thank you to all those who responed with intelligent opinions on my question. It's time for me to move on.

Don't take this the wrong way but if all you wanted to know was should I buy the Halcyon 36 or 45 wing, then just ask your local Halcyon dealer. People are only trying to give you a few options to consider before you spend your hard earned cash.

 

[HammerNoMore]

Ernesto once bubbled...
Well then that would seem to be the problem with scuba board -- I started the thread for a particular reason and I should be able to end it.

This is the first thread I have started perhaps it is also my last.

Again, thank you to all those who responed with intelligent opinions on my question. It's time for me to move on.

Well if that is the attitude you intend to take I have a suggestion for you. You should ask the same question on rec.scuba. You will get a much better answer there.

James


P.S. You should also email the question to "Jammer6" and Scott Coplin. I'm sure they will help.

 

[GoBlue!]

David Evans once bubbled...
My point is that the 27# wing provides ample lift for most recreational divers in cold water (at recreational depths in a drysuit).
....
But it is my opinion that 40 pounds is more lift than the typical recreational drysuit diver needs. That's my opinion, and you are welcome to yours.

-david

I don't mean to resurrect an old debate, but this thread popped up as I was searching for what wing lift I may be interested in. David, could you show me what calculations you're using to support your statement that a 27# wing would be enough for drysuit recreational diving? I'm looking for a single tank wing that would support warm 3mm wetsuit diving & cooler dry suit diving, and this thread has been very helpful.

I saw your post that took Genesis's 30#, subtracted his 14# ditchable, and said that a 27# wing could easily support the remaining 16#. If I'm reading your posts correctly, you feel that 30# is an exaggeration of the true weight at depth in the case of a flood & failure. What would your estimate be, and how do you arrive at it?

I'm not trying to start a battle here...I've never dove w/ a dry suit & am just trying to learn.

Jim

 

[Genesis]

Here's how the math REALLY works for me.

In my drysuit, I need 16lbs with my usual insulation and a single HP100 on a steel BP.

The BP is -6. The tank is -1 empty. The lead is -16, of course, so I'm -23 in total. The suit is +21 and just for argument's sake let's say I'm +2 (its really probably closer to +1, but that's ok)

That's a balanced rig.

Now I fill the tank. It is now 7lbs heavier, and I'm -7 ready to dive.

Ok, I get to the bottom and rip my suit wide open on the wreck. It now is 0 instead of +21. I am now -28.

Oh oh.... what was that about that 27lb wing again? Yeah, I can swim that up, but I'm gonna be ditching the 16 at the surface.

Worse, how much does it take to keep my HEAD out of the water? About 10lbs, assuming its ONLY my head. But that gives me just 3" or so of freeboard. So I want more on the surface, ok?

Now here's where the 45lb wing comes in handy.

You come up to the surface and you have 3-4' seas. That bites. The waves like to wash over you. You have a nice long surface swim, because you missed the upline. No big deal, as there's no huge current, right?

Except for one small problem - your rig can only float your head a bit out of the water, and every time a wave comes along you get submerged.

That's ok as long as you have a lot of air in the tank. When it gets low or runs out, that's not so ok.

The 45lb wing gives me the ability to ride it almost like a raft on the surface. While I will NEVER need that much lift at depth, on the surface in rough conditions its darn nice to have it.

The counterpoint is that with the Halcyon wing you pay a significant penalty for that size in teh form of increased drag, since it has the "bellows sides."

My answer to that is to buy the Oxycheq wing that doesn't have any larger profile than the Oxy 30!

 

[GoBlue!]

Genesis once bubbled...
Here's how the math REALLY works for me.
...
Ok, I get to the bottom and rip my suit wide open on the wreck. It now is 0 instead of +21. I am now -28.

Oh oh.... what was that about that 27lb wing again? Yeah, I can swim that up, but I'm gonna be ditching the 16 at the surface.
...
My answer to that is to buy the Oxycheq wing that doesn't have any larger profile than the Oxy 30!

This makes sense to me. Seems that while we're talking problems with things ripping major amounts, why not consider that the dry suit & wing both get sliced open? Now, seems that you'd be forced to swim up a 28# rig (or a 12# rig if you ditch belt at depth.....which I'd only do if my life depended on it & was willing to risk a major DCS hit) which doesn't sound fun. How would you handle that? Seems that this gets into the issue of how much ditchable weight to carry, and I'm not familiar with dry suit diving enough to figure this out. Can you help?

Jim

 

[Genesis]

Here's the deal.

Ditching at depth is a LAST RESORT. Trying to compute EXACTLY how much you can ditch at the bottom and not get a Polaris-style ascent is difficult at best, especially when the decision has to be made almost instantly.

Therefore, my general view is "you don't ditch at depth. Ever."

Now if the alternative is CERTAIN DEATH, then I drop the weights, assuming I'm carrying some. At times I'm not though.... in fact, essentially all of the time I'm not when diving wet with doubles, and even with steel singles, I am carrying VERY LITTLE lead (one of my common configs has a grand total of TWO lbs of weight on my belt...)

At the surface I'll ditch anything negative, which might mean ditching my KIT. Of course at the surface I don't need tanks and regs....

There is also the reality of double failures. At some point you cannot cover a chain of failures. Where that line is for you, and how much redundancy you need, is a personal decision.

My view is that no SINGLE failure can kill me, and I equip accordingly. I accept that SOME double failures might cack me. That's not say that I won't try, but that I accept that the redundancy necessary to avoid a double-failure getting me in all cases is likely unreasonable to carry with me.

It is very important that you be able to swim up your total kit with a dead wnig. It is best if you can do this without any help from a drysuit, but it is essential that you can do it SOME HOW.

If I'm diving wet with a fairly heavy rig I carry a 50lb lift bag at all times. In an emergency I can either put my left arm through the loop OR clip it to my left shoulder D-ring, and use it for emergency buoyancy. (Its a REAL good idea to practice this before you need it!) If diving dry I usually have a bag as well, but for the more mundane reasons.

Try swimming up your rig from max depth with no gas in the wing, simulating a failure. If you can't, then you're diving a potentially dangerous configuration and need to do something about it.

For a drysuit you need to figure out how much weight is required to sink the suit, and then figure out if you can deal with a torn suit. BTW, depending on the water temp you're in there is more than just the loss of buoyancy that is a problem - there's also the fact that you're going to get REAL cold REAL fast. Also, most drysuit punctures will be in the arms or legs, and not be completely fatal to their buoyancy - leg rips aren't all that serious in this regard, as you can ascend more or less vertical, and most of the buoyancy will still be there. Arm rips are more problematic. Small punctures are more of a problem with the cold than the buoyancy shift.

Fortunately I've yet to hole a suit, but I'm sure some day it will happen.....

 

[d33ps1x]

Ernesto once bubbled...
Well then that would seem to be the problem with scuba board -- I started the thread for a particular reason and I should be able to end it.

This is the first thread I have started perhaps it is also my last.

Again, thank you to all those who responed with intelligent opinions on my question. It's time for me to move on.

With that said I recommend the 18 pound batwing.

Good luck with it.

 

[Corvallis SCUBA]

David Evans once bubbled...


How, exactly, is a 27 pound wing insufficient to float 16 pounds?

I agree.... but I think surface conditions should be considered. In rougher surface conditions the little bit of extra lift is nice.... HIGHER IN THE WATER IS GOOD. I've tried all the Halcyon wings and feel that for the PNW or other areas with potentially rough surface conditions with large single steel tanks, the 36 for smaller to mid size divers and the 45 for large divers is a good guide.

The 36 is *identical* to the 27 with the exception of the pleats sewn into the sides. There is very little difference in streamlining.