Halcyon 36 vs. 45?

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Genesis, I never said *anything* about ditching at depth.

You are making the mistaken assumption that you lose all the buoyancy of your suit in the event of a catastrophic flood.

If your undergarment doesn't retain at least a good deal of its buoyancy characteristics even when soaked through, then you are diving the wrong undergarment (try throwing your thinsulate undergarment in the bathtub sometime and see if you can get it to sink).

As I stated, the only lift needed is the lift needed to float the rig on the surface.

You will float, even in a totally flooded suit.

If needed, ditch the weights on the surface to make yourself more comfortable.

There is no need to have anything over 36# of lift in a singles rig, and failing someone carrying a truly excessive amount of lead, 27# is more than adequate.
 
Ernesto once bubbled...
I have been thinking about doing a pool flood -- for fun!

Be sure you rinse everything with clear water to get the pool chlorine out.

Don't use soap on the undergarment unless it is very dirty. Soap screws up the way the undergarment deals with moisture, so you'll spend an incredible amount of time rinsing before things are back to normal.
 
Genesis, I never said *anything* about ditching at depth.

You just didn't realize it.
You are making the mistaken assumption that you lose all the buoyancy of your suit in the event of a catastrophic flood.

If your undergarment doesn't retain at least a good deal of its buoyancy characteristics even when soaked through, then you are diving the wrong undergarment (try throwing your thinsulate undergarment in the bathtub sometime and see if you can get it to sink).
I've tried it. Undergarmets made out of thinsulate or polartec have only a couple of pounds of buoyancy when sopping wet. I can send mine directly to the bottom with a 2lb lead softweight sack, and I suspect that a 1lb would be enough (I don't happen to have one, so I can't verify that.)

2lbs is about 10% of the total positive buoyancy that my suit miparts when it is being worn. That is insignificant to the computation and as such it is safe to ignore it.

Virtually all of the buoyancy from a shell drysuit is from the air trapped in the fibers of the undergarmet and the suit's "free air space" itself. Dove correctly, the "free air space" is at a minimum, but its still a huge component of the total - probably 75% of it. The trapped airspace (in the undergarmet) will be rapidly replaced by water (with the air venting to the water around you) if the suit has a catastrophic flood.

As I stated, the only lift needed is the lift needed to float the rig on the surface.

You will float, even in a totally flooded suit.

No you won't. I intentionally flooded mine in my pool (with the chlorine at a VERY low level!) when I got it and was teaching myself how to dive it (by sticking my finger down the neck seal until it was COMPLETELY full, taking care to let ALL the air out.)

I estimate that it had less than two lbs of buoyancy left at that point, and that is probably the intrinsic buoyancy of the neoprene booties and material the suit is made of.

If the suit experiences a catastrophic failure (say, its ripped open by the edge of a wreck) you will find that it has virtually zero buoyancy. It won't be quite zero, but it will be damn close to it.

Second, ANY PART of the suit that is above water when you surface will attempt to make you sink to the surface. This is because for every gallon of water above the waterline of the suit, it exerts -8lbs of buoyancy (the weight of the water in air.) Therefore, in the event of a catastrophic flood you have two problems - the first is the near-total loss of buoyancy of the suit, and the second is the extreme difficulty in keeping any part of your body in that suit out of the water - like your mouth, for example, which is damn close to the top of the suit (and thus the "natural" top when flooded.)

Now if you are diving a NEOPRENE drysuit then this does not apply, as the neoprene is naturally buoyant. Even "crushed neoprene" has inherent buoyancy. But for a shell suit, which is what I dive, it absolutely is true; I've tested it personally.

If needed, ditch the weights on the surface to make yourself more comfortable.

There is no need to have anything over 36# of lift in a singles rig, and failing someone carrying a truly excessive amount of lead, 27# is more than adequate.

Horsefeathers.

I've already shown why 27lbs is marginal for many dry suit diving configurations (including my own.) 36 is adequate, but just barely.

The argument for NOT having more has traditionally been one of the penalty paid in the form of increased drag (due to bulk) for doing so.

That penalty argument no longer applies with the Oxycheq 45; its profile is identical to the 30; in fact, they will sit exactly on top of one another without any overhang. The "expanding" part is on the INSIDE, near the TANK, and as such you pay no penalty for it unless you're USING it (at which point you're on the surface and the slight additional drag is irrelavent anyway.)
 
Don Burke once bubbled...



John,

What did you think I meant by "a bubble that big"?

Actually, some designers interpret the main ballast tanks on a submarine as changing displacement, not weight. The math works either way. The ship does too.

Hmm. I didn't see the bubble thing, I focused on the three gallons of water phrase. Sorry. :)

That's interesting about the submariners considering water in their ballast tanks as reducing displacement. I was thinking about the outside shape of the sub not changing and the water/air mix affecting purely weight, like cobblestones would. But I guess if you think of the water in the ballast tanks as "removing" from the volume of the sub, thinking of it as affecting the displacement makes sense.

Anyway, I misread your post. Sorry. Everyone is focusing on the amount of air lost as the issue, which is true. If the drysuit were truly empty of air, pumping it full of water would not affect the diver's buoyancy.

Which now that I think about it, has no bearing on this topic anyway. Hmm. I'll shut up now. Don't know why that rathole looked so interesting to me. Carry on!
 
David Evans once bubbled...
I also dive in the Pacific Northwest (I live in Mukilteo, just north of Seattle).

IMO, the 36 would provide WAY more than enough lift. I dive the 36, and wish I had the 27 instead, because it's more streamlined (although due to the baffles of the 36 the difference is negligible).

I dive LP95s and the E8 130's - both steel, and both BIG tanks.

Even in the event of a catastrophic suit flood, the 27 will easily get you to the surface unless you are dangerously overweighted.

Remember that you only need enough lift in your wing to float your rig on the surface of the water. Your body is positively buoyant. Anything else is excess.

If you are neutral at depth, all you have to do is kick up a foot or two and you will begin an ascent to the surface as Boyle's law and Archimedes' Principle take over - causing you to have to dump air or make an uncontrolled ascent.

At depth, whether you are diving a 27, 36, or even a 100 pound wing, you should have only very little gas in your wing.

The only time my 36# wing is even close to fully inflated is when I am on the surface.

You probably could get by with a 10 pound wing while underwater. Since the Oxycheq 45# wing has about the same profile as their 30# wing where's the harm. If I caught in rough water on the surface I don't want to be caught short. Not everyone's body is positively buoyant, I can't float in a pool wearing a 3mm full lenght wetsuit.
 
Hey, I don't care if people dive with a 200# wing if it makes them happy (and if they are safe in doing so).

Dive whatever rig makes you happy.

My point is that the 27# wing provides ample lift for most recreational divers in cold water (at recreational depths in a drysuit).

You wanna dive a 40 pound Oxycheq? Go for it. Glad you are happy with it. Sincerely. I don't have problem one with you diving that wing.

Now, since we are playing what-if games:

If you are diving 30 pounds of lead and a 10# negative tank, what happens if your BC totally fails at depth? Can your suit lift 40 pounds of weight?

Does it need to?

I dive a compressed neoprene suit (Diving Concepts NeoZ) and I carry 14 pounds of lead plus the 6 pound backplate - I'm 6'4" and 240 pounds, and I look more like a harbor seal than I do a linebacker, if you get my meaning. I use my BC for buoyancy control and just use my drysuit to keep me dry.

It would take a shark bite to rip a hole in my suit that would cause it to totally fail.

I have a 70# wing on my doubles and don't use any ditchable weight for them. I can swim that rig up off the bottom with the wing totally empty. It's work, but I can do it. The only reason I went with the 70 instead of the 55 is so that I can sling multiple stages without concern later in my diving career - and I know guys that sling multiple stages with their 55's all day.

My only point here is that I believe (very strongly) that people tend to WAY over-buy when looking at BCDs. The line of thought goes something like "well, if I have my choice of 40# or 60#, then 60# MUST be better!!!". I have a good friend that dives a conventional BC for his singles that has SEVENTY pounds of lift!!

I'm pleased as punch that you love your OxyCheq 40. They look like solid wings. I've got 250 dives on my Halcyon 36 and it keeps on going. If I ever wear it out, I will certainly look hard at the OxyCheq brand.

But it is my opinion that 40 pounds is more lift than the typical recreational drysuit diver needs. That's my opinion, and you are welcome to yours.

-david
 
David Evans once bubbled...


My only point here is that I believe (very strongly) that people tend to WAY over-buy when looking at BCDs. The line of thought goes something like "well, if I have my choice of 40# or 60#, then 60# MUST be better!!!". I have a good friend that dives a conventional BC for his singles that has SEVENTY pounds of lift!!


-david

I will agree with you on your point above, the more is better line of thinking. However, I think some folks go to the other end of the scale and purchase the minimal amount of lift. Which has it's drawbacks as well. When it comes down to it, you and you alone are going to be diving your rig, and will need to be happy with it. I too have a friend who dives a single tank with an OMS 94# wing. I've told him several times, Dude, lose that monster wing but, he continues to use the thing.
 
Way to go guys, that is one of the few times I have seen (read) discussions go down so well.

So right now, will all those guys who own Oxy Wings and have not voted, please do so on the Oxy Wing Poll...

We want to know how many SB members own Oxy wings...(at least a rough estimate)

:)
 
If you want to start a discussion about Oxy vs. Halcyon go for it, but start a new thread. I started this one because I wanted to buy a new BCD, and I specifically did not want to buy more lift than was necessary/safe. I have been more than impressed with the number of well thought out arguments expressed here -- but I definitely did not start this thread to compare different product lines.
Thank you one and all.
 
Ernesto once bubbled...
If you want to start a discussion about Oxy vs. Halcyon go for it, but start a new thread. I started this one because I wanted to buy a new BCD, and I specifically did not want to buy more lift than was necessary/safe. I have been more than impressed with the number of well thought out arguments expressed here -- but I definitely did not start this thread to compare different product lines.
Thank you one and all.

Ernesto,

With all due respect and to quote someone else who recently commented on a similar subject on Usenet:

"You get to start a thread, you do not get to dictate which direction it leads."

Consdier: 1) Halcon has been the wing manufacturer for the DIR crowd. 2) OC recently entered the picture with a single tank wing that finally competes with the Pioneer.

Given these two facts, it is simply naive to think you can discuss Halcyon wings without OC zealots trying to convince you to look at their wings. Scubaboard does quite a good job of splitting off threads when they start going off topic, but even I who hates OC, think it it qute on topic to discuss such matters.

In fact, to further derail your original question, I must ask: Have you seen this thread?

http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36172&highlight=halcyon

It would seem that if you are dead set on Halcyon, your choices are not limited to 27/36/45. You now have a 30/40 choice to contend with and, on top of that you have to choose between bagged or bagless....
 

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