Had 2 scary experiences: How to avoid in future?

[DandyDon]

Bluewater, I know you don't post on SB much, but that you take a stand opposite of mine on this thread. I ignored your remark above: "So much for being all nice and cuddly Don" mostly because I didn't know what to say, and did not want to throw gasoline on a smoldering fire here. Let's let all that go, please. Different people have different ways of expressing themselves - I think PF & I may hold the SB records for saying things that seemed odd to others, but this thread was simply about the views & experiences of a vacation diver requesting help. We normally are more polite in helping people here.

Jumping on Ron over his casual references to our dinner party was a bit much, Kelley. I am glad that you're spending time on SB and posting more than you used to, but let's not go around witch burning, ok?

So, anyway, let's get back to diving. I haven't been under in over a month. I'm getting the urge for a Santa Rosa NM dip. Hehe, I guess the only options up there now are ice dives. BRRRRRRR! I've done 47 F face sting and ice cream headache, I can't imagine 32 F?! What's the coldest you ever dived?

 

[TSandM]

Well, back to the OP's question: I empathize with you! My 10th through 15th dives were done in Maui, and one of them was a drift dive (a very mild and pretty shallow one) and I was scared to death. I didn't like the feeling of being out of control, of having to go where the water took me. And I would have liked it even less, had we been separated from the group on descent.

On the other hand, I don't think the information I got from my PADI open water class on currents was incomplete or inadequate (and anybody who knows me, knows I don't generally praise that class). I don't think anybody can prepare you for the FEELINGS that are involved in various kinds of diving. I had the intellectual information about currents, but you have to dive in them to know what it's like.

The gas management issues you ran into have already been discussed. If you didn't know you could have problems with reverse block, you probably didn't even think about setting aside a larger reserve gas volume for your ascent. You would nowadays, I hope. If you aren't sure how to do that, read the essay on rock bottom that lamont links to in his sig line. I don't think you'd dive with an identified leak anywhere now, either. I can afford to make that determination, because I've now dived enough to get my gas consumption way down, but beginners go through their tanks in a hurry, and really can't afford any wastage through a leak -- nor can they generally calmly cope with running out of gas underwater.

There were things the dive op probably should have helped you with, and there were things you should have known or made different decisions about, but the bottom line is that you learned something without getting hurt, and that, on this trip, you will do things a little differently.

 

[MatWill]

Lets look at what is taught as far as gas management. The text says to watch your gauge. It says that air limits are amoung the things that buddies should discuss before the dive. It does not outline how to derive those air limits or mention the fact that what's needed is to start your return/ascent with enough gas left to get you and a buddy back to the surface. Standards also don't require a student to demonstrate that they can actually do it. So, though the material hints at the fact that something should be done, it never says what that something is or how to do it.

umm have you even read the open water book?

its all in there and quite clear.

Naturally, you want to avoid an out of air situation by always keeping an ample reserve supply. You may need this air to retrieve something you drop after surfacing and to make sure you dont completely drain your tank. As a rule of thumb, plan to surface with at least 20-30bar/300psi in your tank. Many divers reserve about 35bar/500psi; the smaller the cylinder and the more complex the dive, the more reserve you want to keep. With proper planning, you should be able to make a slow, comfortable ascent, a 3 minute safety stop at 5 metres/15feet and reach the surface with out using your reserve. This is one of the marks of a good diver. - taken straight from the open water manual.

i havnt been on these boards very long, and i dont know of your contrubution in the past. but from what i have seen you just troll others who are trying to help the OPs, you dont actually offer any advise.. just spit on those that do.

to the op, sounds like you have sorted out a solution for your next dive trip. dont let these little men of sb get to you.. they sit on the internet all day trying to make there epeens bigger by putting down 'noobs', inventing alts so they can talk them selves into a frenzy.. so sad..

keep diving and stay safe!

 

[DandyDon]

Superform, let's stick to diving prinicipals, please - and leave out the character assaults. You can find information about them by clicking TOS in the lower left corner fo the page.

I'm not a Mod or anything - just a request from a fellow member, ok?

 

[blownoffvalve]

I ran into that same problem one time in hawaii.. One year it was nice calm and fun.. Another year it was like a hurricane underwater.. Pretty scary as a first experience

 

[MikeFerrara]

This statement is NOT true. I think it speaks to the instructor NOT the agency. It also is going to depend on the student as I do agree that passing a PADI OW class does NOT require the diver to even begin to master or comprehend what is in the OW book.

Take a look at the PADI OW "Go Dive" manual. The Buddy System, Gas management, communication, and dive planning are all there. In chapter two under the heading Buddy System Procedures it provides the following:

1. Agree on entry/exit points and techniques
2. Choose a course to follow.
3. Agree on time and Depth limits.
4. Establish and review communication.
5. Establish returning air pressure.
6. Discuss techniques to stay together.
7. Agree on what to do if separated.
8. Discuss emergency Procedures.
9. Agree on Dive Objectives.

What you need to look at is the standards for the course...what the student is actually required to do. You don't have to look any further than the performance requirements for the ascents and descents. Simply put, students are not required to demonstrate that they can function as a buddy. Review the performance requirement for the tour portion of the OW dives(the actual diving part). They aren't required to do anything other than survive and many classes are conducted with students following an instructor or DM in a pack...if they even get much of a tour. So, when do they learn to dive in a buddy team?

Later in the chapter it says, plan to surface with at LEAST 300psi, and many divers plan to surface with at least 500 psi. Monitoring air, buddy diving, and gas management are found throughout the PADI OW manual.

That isn't gas management. Where does it tell divers when to start an ascent to get to surface with 500 psi? Where does it tell them how to make sure they have anough gas to share with a buddy should the buddy suffer a total gas loss and the deepest or furthest point in the dive? Sorry, the bottom line is that this isn't gas management, by any stretch of the imagination.

I think if people who criticize PADI would take a few minutes to review the OW book, one finds that most everything a recreational diver needs to dive safely is covered.

A few minutes to review the book? I've been reviewing the book as well as the trainng standards for years, taught the class many times and I completely disagree with you.

The problem IMO is that PADI's bar is not real high for passing OW classes, and a lot of students just want to dive, and are not interested in the details. Another issue is the instructors. Mine were great, and did a wonderful job. Like any job, there are the good, the bad, and the ugly!

You may have had a great instructor but I don't know him/her so I confined my statements to the course standards.

 

[MikeFerrara]

umm have you even read the open water book?

Of course.

its all in there and quite clear.

No it isn't

Naturally, you want to avoid an out of air situation by always keeping an ample reserve supply. You may need this air to retrieve something you drop after surfacing and to make sure you dont completely drain your tank.

Gas reserves aren't for making a second dive to retrieve something.

As a rule of thumb, plan to surface with at least 20-30bar/300psi in your tank. Many divers reserve about 35bar/500psi; the smaller the cylinder and the more complex the dive, the more reserve you want to keep. With proper planning, you should be able to make a slow, comfortable ascent, a 3 minute safety stop at 5 metres/15feet and reach the surface with out using your reserve. This is one of the marks of a good diver. - taken straight from the open water manual.

No. The problem with this discussion is that you don't seem to understand gas management. Telling someone to return to the boat with 500 psi without telling them when they must begin the ascent in order to do that is like giving somebody directions and telling them to turn left 2 miles before they see the white house with the blue shutters. But wait...what if you need to do this ascent while donating gas to another diver?

What is needed for gas management?
If your buddy suffers a total gas loss at the deepest port of the dive, you should have adequate reserve so that you can both do a slow ascent and and any desired safety stops while you are both breathing from your tank. The dive should be turned or the ascent started before your volume gets below what is required for that air share return/ascent. Now, how do we know what gas volume is required to be able to do that?

Note that this information is not in the OW text nor do training standards require it be taught. As you demonstrate, the course materials (for all the courses) are so inadequate in regards to gas management that even DM's and instructors haven't learned it.

 

[MatWill]

all of the infomation is there.. its a matter of joining the dots.. OW can dive to 18m the rate of ascent is 18m/min with a 3 min safety stop = 4 mins, planing to surface with 500psi in the tank you can determine as a buddy pair when you should surface so you can stay within your pre defined dive plan goals

they say watch your spg all the time when your starting off untill your comfortable with your gas usage. by doing this you can see how much gas you are using underwater.. this gives an individual value that you can use to PLAN your dive with your buddy. and gives an individual time where you can begin your ascent so you can stick to the plan of surfacing with 500psi

if you put all the dots together you can PLAN your dive and you will know when to ascend as an individual.

in this case your padi/padi cert bashing is really clutching at straws.. sorry

in alot of the areas of the padi courses i see alot of freedom for individual planning and being responsible for your own dive planning and execution

is it perfect? maybe not.. does it warrent you calling instructors and DM's uninformed.. i dont think so. if you have a problem with padi.. how bout you take it up with padi.

 

[MatWill]

also the safety stop is just that.. a safety stop.. not a decompression stop.

it also specifically states that in case of ooa situations or in other emergencies you skip the safety stop.

this limits the ascent time to 1min which barring any other unforseen incedent is plenty to surface with from 18m

all of this infomation is taught in the basic ow course

you say you have read the ow book.. maybe you should re read it...

 

[RonFrank]

What you need to look at is the standards for the course...what the student is actually required to do. You don't have to look any further than the performance requirements for the ascents and descents. Simply put, students are not required to demonstrate that they can function as a buddy. Review the performance requirement for the tour portion of the OW dives(the actual diving part). They aren't required to do anything other than survive and many classes are conducted with students following an instructor or DM in a pack...if they even get much of a tour. So, when do they learn to dive in a buddy team?

Could PADI change the course and require more of the students? Certainly. However I'm not clear how a PADI instructor could ever walk away with the idea that buddy skills are not required. You did say you were an instructor?

Buddy breathing is certainly required in the OW skills portion during CO dives, and PADI certainly does not just allow people who survive to pass the OW portion without demonstrating skills like mask clearing, buddy breathing, buoyancy control (we had to do toe stands), out/back navigation, mask removal, Emergency ascents, etc. While team and buddy diving are not part of the skill testing, they are certainly emphasized in the OW book, and by any decant instructor.

That isn't gas management. Where does it tell divers when to start an ascent to get to surface with 500 psi? Where does it tell them how to make sure they have anough gas to share with a buddy should the buddy suffer a total gas loss and the deepest or furthest point in the dive? Sorry, the bottom line is that this isn't gas management, by any stretch of the imagination.

A few minutes to review the book? I've been reviewing the book as well as the trainng standards for years, taught the class many times and I completely disagree with you.

You may have had a great instructor but I don't know him/her so I confined my statements to the course standards.

So classes operate in a vacuum where the book and course standards are the only thing that can be considered? No diving class is designed in such a way where the book is designed to work as the sole method of training, and the instructor is worthless.

The instructor is a key element of the training where they contribute their knowledge and experience. Our instructor certainly discussed gas management. In fact more so than most other aspects of diving as running out of gas is one of the least desirable things when UW.

PADI does not pretend that the OW class is the end all of dive training. OW prepares a student to start to learn to dive safely. Every certified diver will require additional training or mentoring with more experienced divers, and various diving conditions to become a capable diver.

People can bash PADI, or NAUI, or YMCA all they like. I have not seen an OW class that going to go into advanced gas management for deep water drift diving.

Why the need to bash PADI? Did they piss in your corn flakes in the past? I dive with DIR trained divers, PADI Instructors, NAUI instructors, SSI Instructors, Tech trained divers, and none of them are into agency bashing. Most are into sharing knowledge, and helping others become better dives. So I often wonder what is the motivation of folks here who so like to complain about agencies?