GUE's advantage in terms of content? cave training

[ginti]

I still have some doubts, but your answer clarifies things a bit already, many thanks!

When you get in the water with a certified TDI/IANTD/etc. cave diver, you have absolutely NO idea how they will manage every scenario without going through every possible one in the pre-dive. Which nobody does, and leads to serious confusion when coming to a navigation decision and everyone starts doing different things. Same with failures.

When you get in the water with a GUE trained diver, anywhere in the world, there is no need to have those discussions. You not only know the caliber of diver you are dealing with but also how they will manage issues as they arise.

True, but I met divers from other agencies trained with a "DIR" (I hate this word! ) ) mentality whose protocols are basically the same as GUE. In some cases, despite protocols are not similar at all (for instance, in the case of side-mount/rebreather divers), they are compatible. At least, this is my (limited) experience up to now...

Without going through all of the procedures one by one, a good example is the GUE SOPs. They exist, whereas other agencies don't really have anything like that. TDI standards say things like "respond to a failed regulator" or "demonstrate navigational techniques" and leaves it up to the instructor to make up whatever they think should work (and every instructor think their way is the best, of course), whereas GUE SOPs give you a step by step procedure for managing every type of failure. This keeps everyone in the team on the same page as failures arise in real life (because they do). Same goes with navigation, there are many TDI/IANTD/NSS-CDS instructors in Florida that insist on NOT marking navigation in any way. Then there is a group of instructors in Mexico that teach to jump off of a personal arrow, placing that arrow in the direction of YOUR exit even if it contradicts the system markers (horrible, horrible, horrible idea, by the way). You would think "an S-Drill is an S-Drill", "a valve drill is a valve drill" or "marking a piece of string is marking a piece of string", but it's not. There are many varieties to all of this stuff, some of it is very lazy or just plain dangerous.

Marking lines in my own personal way sounds horrific to me... I hope they manage in a way or another to have few/no accidents...

Anyway, from what you are saying, assuming an instructor from another agency decide to follow GUE protocols (which are not a secret), he is free to do it and there would be basically no difference with a GUE course, do I understand right?

 

[kierentec]

I still have some doubts, but your answer clarifies things a bit already, thanks!


Marking lines in my own personal way sounds horrific to me... Anyway, from what you are saying, assuming an instructor from another agency decide to follow GUE protocols (which are not a secret), he is free to do it and there would be basically no difference with a GUE course, do I understand right?

Procedures wise, correct. I teach GUE SOPs in my TDI and IANTD courses, for example.

However, I will say that a GUE instructor is likely to provide a higher quality of training. Personally, I am learning a TON, and improving my teaching techniques greatly in my progression to C1/T1 instructor. And I'm a TDI Instructor Trainer for pretty much everything.

 

[kierentec]

True, but I met divers from other agencies trained with a "DIR" (I ate this word! ) ) mentality whose protocols are basically the same as GUE. In some cases, despite protocols are not similar at all (for instance, in the case of side-mount/rebreather divers), they are compatible. At least, this is my (limited) experience up to now...
?

There are a lot of divers who fly the "DIR" flag outside of the GUE community. In my personal experience, many of those individuals do a lot that strays from GUE Standards and SOPs. But again, this is all very individual, and no global consistency. Which is where GUE really excels.

 

[ginti]

Procedures wise, correct. I teach GUE SOPs in my TDI and IANTD courses, for example.

However, I will say that a GUE instructor is likely to provide a higher quality of training. Personally, I am learning a TON, and improving my teaching techniques greatly in my progression to C1/T1 instructor. And I'm a TDI Instructor Trainer for pretty much everything.

Ok, this is clear finally )

Last question. Once you will be a GUE C1/T1, I assume there will be some differences between your TDI courses and your GUE ones. And I am pretty much sure it will not be about procedures, please correct me if I am wrong.

What differences will there be? Amount of time you spend teaching? Something else?

 

[ginti]

There are a lot of divers who fly the "DIR" flag outside of the GUE community. In my personal experience, many of those individuals do a lot that strays from GUE Standards and SOPs. But again, this is all very individual, and no global consistency. Which is where GUE really excels.

I am not speaking of divers who say they are DIR... I am speaking about the people that, when you see them underwater, you can easily see they are good divers: good buoyancy/trim, good techniques, team attitude and awareness, S/V-drills and procedures straightforward and predictable. I dive with some of these people. Some have only a fundamental and then switched to other agencies, some don't even have a fundamental. But I also can say that they are the exception, not the rule... again, my experience is very limited

 

[kierentec]

I am not speaking of divers who say they are DIR... I am speaking about the people that, when you see them underwater, you can easily see they are good divers: good buoyancy/trim, good techniques, team attitude and awareness, S/V-drills and procedures straightforward and predictable. I dive with some of these people. Some have only a fundamental and then switched to other agencies, some don't even have a fundamental. But I also can say that they are the exception, not the rule... again, my experience is very limited

Fair enough. Good trim is only the beginning. I think a lot of it will become more clear as you progress with cave training, whichever path you choose.

 

[kierentec]

Ok, this is clear finally )

Last question. Once you will be a GUE C1/T1, I assume there will be some differences between your TDI courses and your GUE ones. And I am pretty much sure it will not be about procedures, please correct me if I am wrong.

What differences will there be? Amount of time you spend teaching? Something else?

The content of the course will be the same, but the prerequisites will be different. Of course for C1, a student will need to have a tech pass. For non-GUE courses, I require students to have a "tech pass equivalent skillset" to keep the standard for entry high, but also allow for divers to come to me from different backgrounds. Also, teaching a non-GUE course I have the option of running 1 on 1 training, which can be beneficial for some students struggling to make schedules line up. GUE courses require a minimum of 2 students (which is highly beneficial, and I try to keep that standard in all of my courses whenever possible).

 

[ginti]

Fair enough. Good trim is only the beginning. I think a lot of it will become more clear as you progress with cave training, whichever path you choose.

Path chosen a long time ago, it's GUE. The reason for me is actually that I change country every once and then, and I cannot spend time looking for a very good instructor and for teammates every time. With GUE, I am sure instructors will be at least decent (I dived with 5 different ones, always amazing divers with a great passion), and I just leave a message on teammates-facebook group to meet people who have a similar approach to me. Not many other choices

The content of the course will be the same, but the prerequisites will be different. Of course for C1, a student will need to have a tech pass. For non-GUE courses, I require students to have a "tech pass equivalent skillset" to keep the standard for entry high, but also allow for divers to come to me from different backgrounds. Also, teaching a non-GUE course I have the option of running 1 on 1 training, which can be beneficial for some students struggling to make schedules line up. GUE courses require a minimum of 2 students (which is highly beneficial, and I try to keep that standard in all of my courses whenever possible).

Clear. I checked your websites, and this actually makes sense, since it seems to me that your non-GUE courses cost more or less the same as an average GUE C1 course (assuming 6 days for a full cave + multistage cave, for instance, and guessing other expenses). I am curious as well about instructors with different pricing between GUE and non-GUE courses (GUE tends to be way more expensive), and about instructors who do not teach GUE, but I guess I should ask to somebody else.

Thanks a lot, you have been very helpful

 

[kierentec]

Path chosen a long time ago, it's GUE. The reason for me is actually that I change country every once and then, and I cannot spend time looking for a very good instructor and for teammates every time. With GUE, I am sure instructors will be at least decent (I dived 5 with 5 different ones, always amazing divers with a great passion), and I just leave a message on teammates-facebook group to meet people who have a similar approach to me. Not many other choices



Clear. I checked your websites, and this actually makes sense, since it seems to me that your non-GUE courses cost more or less the same as an average GUE C1 course (assuming 6 days for a full cave + multistage cave, for instance, and guessing other expenses). I am curious as well about instructors with different pricing (GUE tends to be way more expensive), and about instructors who do not teach GUE, but I guess I should ask to somebody else.

Thanks a lot, you have been very helpful

Cool cool, glad I was able to help! Feel free to give me a shout here, on facebook, or by email anytime if you have any questions you think I might be able to answer. I am happy to be a resource in any way I can.

 

[rddvet]

Jon has given you great answers. From the perspective of someone with training all the way through cave dpv and cave ccr with agencies other than gue and multiple instructors, if I were to do it again I would go gue. There is a huge lack of consistency from instructor to instructor on many basic things such as how to put in a jump or mark a jump to basic team approaches. In classes I have spent a lot of time with instructors debating their philosophy over the philosophy of other instructors I’ve worked with. I’m grateful that I’ve had such exposure, but at the same time having a single philosophy all the way through would have been better.