GUE vs. TDI in terms of opportunities in scientific research projects?

[GF99/99]

Looking to get into tech training but not sure about which agency to go with. There are number of TDI and GUE instructors in my area and I've heard good things about both sides. I've heard of people doing scientific projects collaborating with research centers, etc and I'm hoping I can participate in those things. I wonder if there's a significant difference in involvement in research projects between those two agencies?

Just by doing a simple Google search I could find GUE projects around the world but hard to find any TDI posts, not sure if that could conclude to GUE have more opportunities to get in touch with the scientific world...

Very interesting question.

I think you will find that most researchers are basically living off of ramen and popcorn if that is there primary job i.e. full time university scientist. So trying to get grants and begging for money is the only life they have outside of the lab. Now I will admit I do not know much about funding for agencies like GUE or TDI but I would venture to guess there not jumping with joy to give money away to a researcher project that they basically will get nothing in return for. Sorry to say but a team of 4 scientist going to Micronesia for 3 weeks to study something like octocoral feeding rates is not going to get a diving agency any type of return on there investment. And research trips are not cheap.

If you want to get into research diving your best bet is reaching out to volunteer in upcoming projects that universities have. The key word here is volunteer (and offer to pay your part, ie fuel, supplies, gas, diving fees etc.) money and free labor is a poor struggling researchers best friend. And be willing to do the "new guy" jobs like organizing transect photos, building sediment traps, filtering/drying out sediment traps, sample curation prep and labeling, sample vac bagging, etc.

Really if you want to get into research diving its not agencies that will be your gateway it is more organizations and universities that you should be looking at. These are the people backing research diving and conducting it.

That being said recently one of my good friends just finished writing up a TDI specialty course that was accepted by TDI so keep you eye out for that one.

The other reason why I think TDI or other agencies can not affiliate themselves with certain research diving is a lot of research diving is beyond TDI standards. For example the last research trip I was on that my friend actually wrote the course for a majority of our diving was sub 100m down to 160m and most dives were were well over 100% CNS. TDI can not affiliate themselves with dives like this. Additionally unless your fully decked out in a Santi suit with a GUE configured JJ or RB80 behind a Suex I don't know how willing GUE is to back a project as this would not look good for there photos, especially since research diving is not earning you any photo style points. There will be no classic super stoic I'm in perfect GUE trim photos. You will be touching rocks with you hands, transects, sample bags, data loggers, etc dangling from your harness.

Amazing experience though, discovered a new species!

Check around minute 3:40. I am filming

 

[Celt]

I think you’re putting the cart before the horse. It’s the science end you need to concentrate on, but could do commercial diving and try getting in that way. Divers are two a penny and quite happy to work for free on summertime projects. If you’re even allowed. Without some kind of scientific background you’re at nothing.

 

[berndo]

A lot of these 'projects' are a marketing play by shops and instructors. You pay (extra) to join a trip essentially.
When you call it a 'project' you can charge more (and sell more classes) and it looks better on facebook or in marketing articles.
Some trips are called 'expeditions' for the same reason.
GUE does the best marketing has the most aggressive sales strategy... so you see alot of their marketing material online.
Actual projects or expeditions usually aren't marketed to noobs to make a buck for an instructor.

 

[MattK911]

True science diving is a very different goal than technical diving.

For research done at the University level in the United States, AAUS Science Diver is the desired certification. To become AAUS certified, one usually must become a registered official volunteer for the university, and take the training course usually offered by the Dive Saftey Officer (DSO). Any agency offering a "science diving course" within the United States is practically offering a useless certification, as the certifying agency is not recognized by the majority of University systems, and you would need to take the AAUS certification class though the Dive Safety Officer anyways.



Source: Girlfriend is a PHD student studying Coral Microbiomes at the University of Florida, and is also on the dive safety board.

 

[OrcasC205]

@Penn

Looking to get into tech training but not sure about which agency to go with. There are number of TDI and GUE instructors in my area and I've heard good things about both sides. I've heard of people doing scientific projects collaborating with research centers, etc and I'm hoping I can participate in those things. I wonder if there's a significant difference in involvement in research projects between those two agencies?

Just by doing a simple Google search I could find GUE projects around the world but hard to find any TDI posts, not sure if that could conclude to GUE have more opportunities to get in touch with the scientific world...

If you are in Western Washington, we have a pretty healthy GUE community in the Seattle area (and the Kitsap Peninsula) that gets involved in projects, both locally and around the world. For example, we have been working with a local side-scan sonar survey company to get an accurate picture of targets on the bottom of Lake Union and Lake Washington, including diving on them to verify the target and try to get any identifying details. These projects are open to of our local members with as little as a GUE Fundamentals recreational pass (depending on the target, of course.) One of our local instructors has also been involved in some pretty high-profile exploration projects in Europe and the South Pacific recently. Those are more "exploration" projects, especially focused on photogrammetry, but we are trying to get more involved with "scientific" projects as well -- it's one of our current board's goals (myself included.)

We have weekly Wednesday Night dives (currently meeting at Cove 2 on Alki at 6pm) if you want to join us and chat about what we are working on. DM me if you want more details.

 

[berndo]

These projects are open to of our local members with as little as a GUE Fundamentals recreational pass (depending on the target, of course.)

How come people without GUE training can't join a project even if it's easy enough to do for people with entry level training? Honest question.

All actual projects I know of go by skill rather than by club affiliation.

BTW: What do you mean by 'high-profile' exploration?

 

[rddvet]

.....and it's about to become a shi-show of a thread that started out well-meaning.

As a side note, being a scientist can also make you inelligible for dive work, so keep that in mind. For instance where my wife works she is not allowed to dive on company time. It's all subcontracted out due to insurance and risk aversion. Which is pretty sad because my wife has more experience, knowledge, and training than most of the people who are paid to do the work she easily could be doing under her job title. But because she works for the government they will not bend on the issue.

.....and now back to the regularly schedule shi-show of any thread that has the word gue in it.

 

[OrcasC205]

How come people without GUE training can't join a project even if it's easy enough to do for people with entry level training? Honest question.

These are local projects coordinated by volunteers in the local GUE regional organization where we have a large member base with known skills. Why not leverage that base for these projects? What is the benefit to us if we open it to unknown divers if we have sufficient resources ourselves? It's not like anyone is making any money off these projects.

BTW: What do you mean by 'high-profile' exploration?

I mean projects well funded by outside research organizations with published results (papers, etc.)

 

[ginti]

True science diving is a very different goal than technical diving.

For research done at the University level in the United States, AAUS Science Diver is the desired certification. To become AAUS certified, one usually must become a registered official volunteer for the university, and take the training course usually offered by the Dive Saftey Officer (DSO). Any agency offering a "science diving course" within the United States is practically offering a useless certification, as the certifying agency is not recognized by the majority of University systems, and you would need to take the AAUS certification class though the Dive Safety Officer anyways.



Source: Girlfriend is a PHD student studying Coral Microbiomes at the University of Florida, and is also on the dive safety board.

Agreed. What non-scientific divers can do is support.

I myself collected samples under the supervision of a Canadian geology professor in Sardinia (he was diving with us). I know (not personally, just by name) an Italian professor of geology who is also a cave diver, and for her projects, she recruits full cave divers (because it isn't easy to find scientists who are also trained up to the full cave level).

I can tell you that in Italy, there are tons of archaeological projects where the vast majority of divers are technical divers, not scientists. This is especially true at depth, in the hypoxic trimix range. In this range, submarines are too expensive, and at the same time, it is very hard to find enough scientists to carry out all the activities at these depths (sometimes the scientists do all their jobs out of the water - same problem mentioned above, not many scientists trained up to hypoxic trimix).

This is agency-independent - there are tons of explorers with any agency. I think the OP was referring to these types of activities, not to a researcher's job.

 

[greeniguana]

Most of the AAUS divers I know are nowhere near tech level. They all either work for, or are students/faculty of the AAUS Organizational Member that sponsored them.

AAUS membership is an odd duck. If you need it, you'll know you need it. And If you need it, you'll be able to get it.