GUE vs. TDI in terms of opportunities in scientific research projects?

[Angelo Farina]

As other have already pointed out, "true" scientific research is something quite different from those "research projects" organised by GUE and other entities.
I am an academic with a permanent position of full professor at the University of Parma, Italy.
When my research requires to perforn some activity underwater we must rely only on personnel doing it under contract or being employees of the University. Volunteers are not allowed, wathever their certification.
People taking part to our experimental campaigns must be highly qualified, usually with a PhD on topics related to the research project. I work on acoustics, so typical PhD is on Applied Physics (my one), Electronic Engineering, etc.
The diving certification is required and the activity must be limited to the certification limits, but the agency is not really relevant. What matters is that the activity is always conducted under strict direction by a responsible of safety.
Of course scientific divers are paid by the University, but here in Italy the wages are quite bad.
A post-doc is typically hired with a one-year contract ranging between 24000 and 30000 € all included, so the net income after tax, pension and insurance is almost half.
So, before becoming a true scientific diver you must get your PhD...
And be aware that most experiments are truly boring and fatiguing dives.
If instead you just want to dive for fun, in dummy research projects organised just for appearing to be doing something useful and serious, then you can join those "programs".
They will not pay you, they instead will ask you money...

 

[berndo]

.....and it's about to become a shi-show of a thread that started out well-meaning.

It's people spamming advertisement is what I would call it. Every single time somebody asks something like this, the fans come out will hammer OP with ads.

Why not leverage that base for these projects? What is the benefit to us if we open it to unknown divers if we have sufficient resources ourselves?

Why not answer my question?

It's not like anyone is making any money off these projects.

Marketing makes money. Otherwise nobody would do it and pump money into it. Of course the lower level participants (the believers) wont see any money. Of course the dude in at the mall handing out 'the watchtower' isn't making any money. Why you think projects are being promoted on facebook, blogs etc. in the first place?

 

[berndo]

@OrcasC205 I think if a project organizer genuinely cared a project, it would be open to all people that are skilled enough. If it's open to a noob with a fundi class but not open to actually skilled and experienced divers... it speaks for itself I think.

 

[lowwall]

It's people spamming advertisement is what I would call it. Every single time somebody asks something like this, the fans come out will hammer OP with ads.

Why not answer my question?

Marketing makes money. Otherwise nobody would do it and pump money into it. Of course the lower level participants (the believers) wont see any money. Of course the dude in at the mall handing out 'the watchtower' isn't making any money. Why you think projects are being promoted on facebook, blogs etc. in the first place?

Sometimes it's just for fun or to give your hobby a focus. I was involved with the Underwater Archeology Society of Chicago for a couple of years. I don't know the correct state of the group, but at the time they would have at least one annual project of mapping a Lake Michigan wreck. There were no particular certs required. It was volunteers from top to bottom, no one made any money from it and no one called it scientific research. But they did produce stuff like this:

 

[OrcasC205]

Why not answer my question?

I believe I did, but I'll spell it out more clearly to you. To paraphrase, you asked "if we had projects that our members with a GUE Fundamentals Recreation Pass could participate in, why a non-GUE diver could not participate?" My response was that these are projects coordinated by volunteers in the local GUE organization. From a planning perspective, the people organizing it have two choices: ask local known members of the organization to participate, or ask any divers off the street to participate. Which is easier? Asking people that you know have at least acceptable buoyancy and trim that they are not going to stir up the silt on the bottom around the wreck we are surveying, or bringing in someone off the street that you don't know? Why would they go outside when there is a sufficient resource pool in the organization? That's just more work and more unknowns for them.

 

[OrcasC205]

@OrcasC205 I think if a project organizer genuinely cared a project, it would be open to all people that are skilled enough. If it's open to a noob with a fundi class but not open to actually skilled and experienced divers... it speaks for itself I think.

Your premise is that projects people in the organization care about are not getting completed due to a lack of resources from the local members, which is not true in this case. There is also the aspect that we work to to grow the experience of our members, so giving them opportunities that are in line with their training and skills is a benefit to them.

 

[berndo]

My point was, that in other sports you're judged by your skill, in diving (especially in gue) you're judged by how much money you've spend (and hoops you've jumped to).
This is a prime example for that.

 

[berndo]

Sometimes it's just for fun or to give your hobby a focus. I was involved with the Underwater Archeology Society of Chicago for a couple of years. I don't know the correct state of the group, but at the time they would have at least one annual project of mapping a Lake Michigan wreck. There were no particular certs required. It was volunteers from top to bottom, no one made any money from it and no one called it scientific research. But they did produce stuff like this:

Not saying every project is BS. There is worthwhile stuff for sure.

 

[OrcasC205]

My point was, that in other sports you're judged by your skill, in diving (especially in gue) you're judged by how much money you've spend (and hoops you've jumped to).
This is a prime example for that.

In my daughter's adult softball league (another local club organization), they take all the people that join the league (and yes, pay their annual fee) and divide the members into teams no matter the member's abilities. The league is set up so the members have fun and have an opportunity to improve, not to make the best single softball team. In other words, the organization serves the members, not the general public.

 

[tursiops]

Re AAUS in the US:

It exists in large part as an agreement with OSHA that allows science divers to not be classified as professional/commercial divers. If they are doing it as part of thier work, and thus getting paid to do it, the argument was that they are commercial divers. But the logistical support required for commercial diving is so extensive and so expensive that the univerisities could not do it. So the agreement was reached that AAUS would train and monitor the science-diving community -- and avoid doing serious commercial work like big power tools underwater -- in return for fewer restrictions on their activities.

"Scientific diving means diving performed solely as a necessary part of a scientific activity by employees whose sole purpose for diving is to perform scientific research tasks. Scientific diving does not include tasks generally associated with commercial diving such as: rigging heavy objects underwater, inspection of pipelines, construction, demolition, cutting or welding, or the use of explosives."​

See History.

This is why science diving in he US is not the same as that in other countries.