GUE vs. TDI in terms of opportunities in scientific research projects?

[SpeedyJ]

A lot of these 'projects' are a marketing play by shops and instructors. You pay (extra) to join a trip essentially.
When you call it a 'project' you can charge more (and sell more classes) and it looks better on facebook or in marketing articles.
Some trips are called 'expeditions' for the same reason.
GUE does the best marketing has the most aggressive sales strategy... so you see alot of their marketing material online.
Actual projects or expeditions usually aren't marketed to noobs to make a buck for an instructor.

Your opinion which you've repeated in multiple threads is so detached from the reality of GUE's absolutely tiny (and predominantly volunteer) marketing team that it's laughable. Not to mention your wholesale mischaracterization of the motivation behind the projects, and persistent desire to cast aspersions toward the GUE community as a whole.

Many GUE communities around the globe are executing projects based on the interests and capabilities of the community. I have interests in water quality and environmental monitoring, so I've spun up a project focused on that. No instructor involved, no charge to participate (though participants have been keen to donate for materials) and no sales or marketing strategy in play.

@OrcasC205 I think if a project organizer genuinely cared a project, it would be open to all people that are skilled enough. If it's open to a noob with a fundi class but not open to actually skilled and experienced divers... it speaks for itself I think.

My point was, that in other sports you're judged by your skill, in diving (especially in gue) you're judged by how much money you've spend (and hoops you've jumped to).
This is a prime example for that.

This right here is a prime example of you not understanding one of the key tenets of GUE: the team SOPs. It's not about how amazing your trim is, or how beautiful your back kick is, but are you trained in the protocols that will be used in execution of the dive.

In my daughter's adult softball league (another local club organization), they take all the people that join the league (and yes, pay their annual fee) and divide the members into teams no matter the member's abilities. The league is set up so the members have fun and have an opportunity to improve, not to make the best single softball team. In other words, the organization serves the members, not the general public.

This is very much how the GUE community in my area operates, within the limits of a divers training. And to your point, the community serves its members: GUE Divers, while also working to be a positive force in the community through participation and partnership in projects and opening up educational opportunities to the broader dive community.

What we don't do is subvert the SOPs and diving practices that define GUE because someone thinks we're exclusionary. There is a clear path to participation, and the community welcomes newcomers with support and mentorship to help them achieve their goals.

 

[Nick_Radov]

How come people without GUE training can't join a project even if it's easy enough to do for people with entry level training? Honest question.

There is no fixed rule about this. GUE itself only directly runs a small number of projects. Most projects are run through local organizations with varying levels of GUE affiliation or financial sponsorship, and they can set their own rules. For BAUE projects we have had people without GUE certification helping out in various roles such as surface support, boat crew, and data analysis. But project divers must dive within their GUE certification level. For safety and productivity we need to have everyone on the same page. Project managers are volunteers and don't have time to deal with making exceptions for individuals. And achieving a Fundamentals certification is honestly not a high bar to cross.

For citizen scientists who want to make a contribution without GUE certification I highly recommend Project Baseline. They take data submissions from anyone regardless on certification or lack thereof.

Home

HELP PROTECTWHAT YOU LOVESTART A PROJECT IN YOUR AREA By contributing to Project Baseline, you are joining a global team of concerned and invested citizens who share underwater observations, normally inaccessible to the public, with divers and non-divers alike. We welcome volunteer participation...

projectbaseline.org

 

[Nick_Radov]

My point was, that in other sports you're judged by your skill, in diving (especially in gue) you're judged by how much money you've spend (and hoops you've jumped to).
This is a prime example for that.

This is not a competitive sport. There are no prizes to win. Participants have other motivations

Most managers of GUE affiliated projects don't have the time or energy to waste evaluating the skills of random divers who might want to participate. It's much easier to rely on the existing GUE instructors and training system. Their high level of standards and quality control gives a reasonable assurance that certified divers will be able to make a positive contribution without needing remedial training on the basics.

But mostly we're discussing hypotheticals and generalities here. If you want to participate in a particular project then just contact the project manager and ask how you can volunteer. There is no real consistency between various project participation requirements. GUE doesn't usually impose anything from the top down.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

People, it isn't just skills that are a limiting factor. Attitude is another factor. it doesn't matter if you are the Second Coming in the dive industry. Scientists have a job to do and if you are disruptive to the work atmosphere, you are going to be kicked to the curb.

 

[drohn]

True science diving is a very different goal than technical diving.

For research done at the University level in the United States, AAUS Science Diver is the desired certification. To become AAUS certified, one usually must become a registered official volunteer for the university, and take the training course usually offered by the Dive Saftey Officer (DSO). Any agency offering a "science diving course" within the United States is practically offering a useless certification, as the certifying agency is not recognized by the majority of University systems, and you would need to take the AAUS certification class though the Dive Safety Officer anyways.



Source: Girlfriend is a PHD student studying Coral Microbiomes at the University of Florida, and is also on the dive safety board.

There is an equivalent to that for the EU and it's called Certified Research Diver. Whether you have to be certified as one or not has a lot to do with the funding of the project. In Germany, if certrain statern insitutions (universities, state departments, maritime research institutes) are asking for divers, they may only accept divers with at least that certificate. Don't bother anything else. And it is not easy to obtain, at all. If your project is privately funded (investors, funds, your next bored billionaire), things are more open of course. Then again, you will have to work together with the local authorities of your endeavour (e.g., cultural hertiage authorities) anyway - and they may come up with a minimum definition of professional education to the divers themselfs like that Certified Research Diver (in the EU).

 

[M G]

Looking to get into tech training but not sure about which agency to go with. There are number of TDI and GUE instructors in my area and I've heard good things about both sides. I've heard of people doing scientific projects collaborating with research centers, etc and I'm hoping I can participate in those things. I wonder if there's a significant difference in involvement in research projects between those two agencies?

Just by doing a simple Google search I could find GUE projects around the world but hard to find any TDI posts, not sure if that could conclude to GUE have more opportunities to get in touch with the scientific world...

TDI is not a research organization. So, I wouldn't expect to find TDI research projects, per se. Plenty of TDI professionals and TDI trained divers participating in research projects, but they don't identify the project with the agency. Your personal abilities, mental game, and networking opportunities are the important factors. Agency doesn't matter much. Go with an instructor you feel will provide you the best development opportunity.

 

[berndo]

... in the protocols that will be used in execution of the dive.

You don't have special knowlege... you just think you do. I dove with plenty gue people (not super zealotty once though). There is no special sauce, it's all pretty basic. The exclusivity is created by the pricing.

There is a clear path to participation, and the community welcomes newcomers with support and mentorship to help them achieve their goals.

Yes, I know, that was kinda my point. You pay to get it. That's what I said (well, and you have to buy into the 'Ethos').

BTW: The marketing point is hardly a dig. They are the only ones on the dive industry who follow a professional and modern marketing strategy. Them pumping out content and encouraging their instructor to do youtube, post 'project' reports etc. is not a conicidence.

 

[lostsheep]

If you want to get in on projects your best bet is going to be to make friends ; it’s gonna be mostly who you know compared to what you know. Obviously some dives require a more advanced skill set.

Divers are annoyingly cliquey but some groups basically institutionalize this behavior. I fundamentally object , pun intended, and refuse to play.

 

[berndo]

... but some groups basically institutionalize this behavior.

Very well said... I think that hits the nail on the head.

 

[SpeedyJ]

You don't have special knowlege... you just think you do. I dove with plenty gue people (not super zealotty once though). There is no special sauce, it's all pretty basic. The exclusivity is created by the pricing.


Yes, I know, that was kinda my point. You pay to get it. That's what I said (well, and you have to buy into the 'Ethos').

You're right, its all pretty basic, and there are books with every bit of the what, how, and why available... but as a group, we agree to it, are trained on it, and put it into practice - that is the difference. It makes things clean and simple for us when it's time to go diving.

It's not the only way, but it's the way GUE divers have decided to do things. When looking at launching a project I balance the need participants, the demands of the diving, and honestly, what is going to make the all of the effort I put in enjoyable for me.

I enjoy diving with GUE trained divers (especially if I don't already know the person) because its simple to execute dives - we leverage our training and SOPs. Its not about a clique, it's not about being exclusive, it's not about prestige. It's the fact that it lets me focus on the project instead of herding cats, and again, I'm not getting paid for this, so my enjoyment gets a pretty heavy weighting.

I recently did a project dive with a non-GUE organization, and the experience in-water was less than stellar. Many of the divers were diving beyond their skill and capacity level, with a near-miss occurring, most teams failing to return with complete sets of data, and once compiled, the analysis determined the data was garbage. Is this every non-GUE organization? Of course not, but it's a solid example of why I would choose to apply some gate keeping to a project I run, again, especially in regards to someone I have never been diving with previously.

At the end of the day, it's like this: if you want to dive in a cave, you get cave training. If you want to deco dive on a wreck, you get tech training. If you want to participate in GUE diving activities you get GUE training. If you want to participate in a GUE project, but aren't willing to get the training, that is your decision... your exclusion is self imposed - not the fault of the agency or the project leader. And the daily rates are often on par with similar courses, so just stop with your pricing exclusivity nonsense.