DIR- GUE GUE CCR Discussion (split from Tec Pass Thread)

[Jack Hammer]

Did'nt say I would not do Tech 1 or an other Normoxic course Just said the GUE CCR path is too cumbersome and expensive for me in regards to the perceived benefits. There are more very good trainers out there than just GUE instructors. Furthermore, I really dislike the GUE JJ-CCR solution so that's not an option for me anyway.

One of my GUE CCR1 classmates had a CE unit he was trained on and experienced with. Hedove a different RB prior to that, dont recall which. Reconfiguring was simple and not expensive as he already had most the stuff except for dual 7L tanks, which he rented.

He said, IIRC, that about 3/4 of what was taught in the CCR1 class was never mentioned in his other RB training and the skills that were taught were also much more refined. As he's in Europe he dives it back in the CE configuration. Just food for thought, do what works for you.

 

[AJ]

One of my GUE CCR1 classmates had a CE unit he was trained on and experienced with. Hedove a different RB prior to that, dont recall which. Reconfiguring was simple and not expensive as he already had most the stuff except for dual 7L tanks, which he rented.

Having all the stuff already helps a lot, starting from scratch is imo expensive next to buying a breather that already works out of the box.

He said, IIRC, that about 3/4 of what was taught in the CCR1 class was never mentioned in his other RB training and the skills that were taught were also much more refined.

That's interesting. I wonder if it's a difference in instructor or agency? I know from experience that GUE does a really good job training divers. Fundies was the best dive training I had and made me a much better diver. Still considering Tech 1 and Cave 1 btw. Just don't like the GUE CCR config

 

[tbone1004]

So you have not taken a hypoxic or even a 2 deco bottle course at all?

The JJ with the backmounted 50s is pretty much the worst hobgoblin of a CCR for caves but that's another issue

Plus the BOV is on the roll off post.

The oxygen tank sticks up behind you making the unit asymmetric at a weird angle. I’m almost certain that line would love to sneak back there and cause some fun.

There’s no way to add offboard gas.

No practical way to increase your onboard bailout supply as the unit is already very wide.

The absence of a backup reg is inconsistent with GUE open circuit configuration. The class is also taught optionally without a BOV which I think is absolutely insane.

Yea you can carry stages, sure. But adding 85s or 120s in place of the 50s? Supa wide. Plus an argon bottle? Oof.

I have a rack that was made by DSS for the UTD abomination of one of the KISS rebreathers I think. I used it with my Meg. The concept of the GUE style rack is brilliant, however the engineer demons in my head couldn't get over the asymmetry of the 3l. I put a second one on the left for inflation. Can run wing+suit on there depending on depth/profile, or just the suit depending.
I use a normal doubles set with the only change being a regulator hose with a QC6 coming off of the right post that plugs into the distribution block for the CCR *mav/ADV on my meg, and now with BOV*.

Obviously not the GUE standard, but it made sense to me to keep my doubles regs essentially unmodified, keeps the secondary under my chin since it is fed off of the opposite post of the CCR and is also right there in case you need to get off of the loop ASAP as well as making an air share more similar to on OC. Shut off loop, switch to necklace, complete air share, when stable, get back on loop. It's big, it's heavy, it's the tits for boat diving, it acts like a huge air brake when on the trigger, and yeah, you have to be really careful when going under lines, but it's a super clean setup and I love it. This rack can handle bigger bottles as well similar to the Fathom if you need it, but with a heavy CCR like the Meg it would be uncomfortably heavy. It's well over 100lbs as is *within a couple pounds of a set of LP104's with as @PfcAJ says a "real fill"* and you'd be adding about 50lbs to go from LP50's to HP120's or LP108's. I get more warm fuzzies from the 50's+extra stages than I do from bigger bottles and less stages and when you have a monstrosity like that on your back, a bouquet isn't that bad

 

[rjack321]

Did'nt say I would not do Tech 1 or an other Normoxic course Just said the GUE CCR path is too cumbersome and expensive for me in regards to the perceived benefits. There are more very good trainers out there than just GUE instructors. Furthermore, I really dislike the GUE JJ-CCR solution so that's not an option for me anyway.

I didn't go the GUE CCR1/2 or the JJ route either. The JJ with the backmounted dil doesn't work for much of my diving at all and the course structure and available instructors are not for me. Plus I am a 3 time back surgery lottery winner so the thought of backmounting 50s makes me cringe. You only have 1 set of disks and they do age and change. You can't make up for that by hitting the gym like some GUE instructors have suggested.

But I also had roughly 400 OC trimix dives before switching to CCR which was more my point.

 

[justinthedeeps]

You'd be surprised the value of a Tech1 or very demanding Normoxic course when it comes to having your **** together while bailing out from CCR.

Yeah that's it, if one manages to get off loop safely, now it's a stressful OC dive that they may or may not have even done before, potentially with no back gas (unless twin 50s), and added loop management (venting, flushing, flooding, auto-inflating etc)

At the same time, no good instructor will take anyone below what *appears* to be their carefully trained, competent OC tech and/or BO depth. But it all has to come together within a week's time in a ~10 (or fewer?) training dives.

Is GUE better at that than TDI? Maybe....? Are there statistics? Is the assumption that TDI instructors never tell people that they aren't ready and won't pass? I've heard otherwise.

Is a 1 week rigorous CCR+BO training course equivalent to years of deeper OC experience? No certainly not

 

[PfcAJ]

I have a rack that was made by DSS for the UTD abomination of one of the KISS rebreathers I think. I used it with my Meg. The concept of the GUE style rack is brilliant, however the engineer demons in my head couldn't get over the asymmetry of the 3l. I put a second one on the left for inflation. Can run wing+suit on there depending on depth/profile, or just the suit depending.
I use a normal doubles set with the only change being a regulator hose with a QC6 coming off of the right post that plugs into the distribution block for the CCR *mav/ADV on my meg, and now with BOV*.

Obviously not the GUE standard, but it made sense to me to keep my doubles regs essentially unmodified, keeps the secondary under my chin since it is fed off of the opposite post of the CCR and is also right there in case you need to get off of the loop ASAP as well as making an air share more similar to on OC. Shut off loop, switch to necklace, complete air share, when stable, get back on loop. It's big, it's heavy, it's the tits for boat diving, it acts like a huge air brake when on the trigger, and yeah, you have to be really careful when going under lines, but it's a super clean setup and I love it. This rack can handle bigger bottles as well similar to the Fathom if you need it, but with a heavy CCR like the Meg it would be uncomfortably heavy. It's well over 100lbs as is *within a couple pounds of a set of LP104's with as @PfcAJ says a "real fill"* and you'd be adding about 50lbs to go from LP50's to HP120's or LP108's. I get more warm fuzzies from the 50's+extra stages than I do from bigger bottles and less stages and when you have a monstrosity like that on your back, a bouquet isn't that bad

a set of 85s on a rack is way less fatiguing over long distance than a set of 50s. The 85s track way better than the smaller tanks and stages to make up the difference in volume.

deep and far? Absolutely miss me with that 50 nonsense.

 

[Matan]

I agree totally on never cutting corners when it comes to training. However, when it comes to CCR training I myself would pass on the GUE solution. I would also seek (and that's what I'am doing now) other quality CCR training. It turned out for me high quality CCR training is more nearby (couple of 100 km's in stead of thousands of km's) and more convenient to plan (not a two weeks travel and training, but four to five weekends nearby). Besides that, non GUE CCR training gives me more choice than just the GUE solution (aka "Franken JJ-CCR"). Besides that, the cost of GUE training would easily be four to maybe six times as high for Tech1/CCR1 compared to "normal" MOD1 training. Also there would be an obligation for a costly change for the JJ-CCR to a GUE compliant setup). Total costs for CCR MOD1 including rebreather would double easily (which is a lot of money) without significant benefits to me besides just getting a GUE certificate. Therefore, to me the benefits of GUE training and CCR config are just not enough, so that also steers my choice away from GUE CCR.

If you're in for deep OC diving, I would say anytime: go for GUE!!!! If CCR is your future, imo don't bother with GUE unless you really really really want to dive in (mixed) GUE project teams.

The cost of training.... you get what you pay for...
going for open water to CCR (which you can with "MOD1" AFAIK in most agencies) sounds bad to me. saves money, but not really where I want to go.

going to CCR1 in GUE means open water -> fundies (4 days) -> T1 (6 days) -> CCR1 (6 Days - most MOD1 classes are 5 days). you get more training - you should pay more money. traveling to get proper training == time == money. so again paying more to get more isn't a bad thing.

how many divers have I seen coming on the boat after cheap training knowing slightly more then nothing and fail to do dives every T1/T2 diver will call "simple" - I've lost count here.

reminding what I said on what is now a different thread - GUE is a shortcut to becoming a better diver, rather then taking cheap training and "learn it all by yourself" - trust me overall GUE training are cheaper - when you are out of a GUE class you are ready to do the dives the class trained you to do. IMHO other agencies (where I live) don't give you that - you pay extra on dives you do later to learn while someone after a GUE class will have fun..... now that's a waste of money.

Having all the stuff already helps a lot, starting from scratch is imo expensive next to buying a breather that already works out of the box.


That's interesting. I wonder if it's a difference in instructor or agency? I know from experience that GUE does a really good job training divers. Fundies was the best dive training I had and made me a much better diver. Still considering Tech 1 and Cave 1 btw. Just don't like the GUE CCR config

same as above - you pay more, and get more - and the first thing you get in a GUE class isn't "configuration" - it's proper training and becoming a better diver.



Matan.

 

[AJ]

T - you pay more, and get more - and the first thing you get in a GUE class isn't "configuration" - it's proper training and becoming a better diver.

GUE training is good, no doubt about that. However, there are other equally good and possibly better instructors (more specialized) out there. The real question is: do you want to dive the GUE way or not? OC BM yes, absolutely! When it comes to CCR and Sidemount, not thanks. I do not dig the GUE style. Therefore I'am looking for other trainers. Being forced to do it the GUE way I don't want, won't make me a better diver I think.

As far as cost goes, my path will probably not be cheaper at all in the end (cave in Mexico, CCR in Malta), but at least it's focused on my goals. That's whats steering me away from GUE. OC BM diving GUE style fits me like a glove, the rest...no thanks.That does not mean I don't like GUE (on contrary), it means GUE just does not provide the training and knowledge I'am looking for. I'am not a fanboy of any agency or config, I want the best training suited for me for doing the dives with the gear I want.

P.s. I'am GUE Fundamentals Tech certified and dove with a lot of Tech/Cave GUE trained divers. I know what GUE is all about.

 

[tbone1004]

a set of 85s on a rack is way less fatiguing over long distance than a set of 50s. The 85s track way better than the smaller tanks and stages to make up the difference in volume.

deep and far? Absolutely miss me with that 50 nonsense.

I changed to a sidemount rig before I started going deep and far, but keep the rack for OW diving, but I agree that if you don't need to go very far with the rig on land that it would be better in the water than 50's.

 

[Matan]

GUE training is good, no doubt about that. However, there are other equally good and possibly better instructors (more specialized) out there. The real question is: do you want to dive the GUE way or not? OC BM yes, absolutely! When it comes to CCR and Sidemount, not thanks. I do not dig the GUE style. Therefore I'am looking for other trainers. Being forced to do it the GUE way I don't want, won't make me a better diver I think.

As far as cost goes, my path will probably not be cheaper at all in the end (cave in Mexico, CCR in Malta), but at least it's focused on my goals. That's whats steering me away from GUE. OC BM diving GUE style fits me like a glove, the rest...no thanks.That does not mean I don't like GUE (on contrary), it means GUE just does not provide the training and knowledge I'am looking for. I'am not a fanboy of any agency or config, I want the best training suited for me for doing the dives with the gear I want.

P.s. I'am GUE Fundamentals Tech certified and dove with a lot of Tech/Cave GUE trained divers. I know what GUE is all about.

well - looks like you're all covered