DIR- GUE GUE blessing new CCR model in next 2 years?

[sunny_diver]

Any speculation on whether or not GUE will adopt another CCR model in the next 2 years?

I wonder if the JJ was the right choice for GUE years ago, but maybe there are other units out now or on the horizon which would be a better choice these days.

I'm not a CCR diver at the moment.

 

[grantctobin]

Doubtful. There’s a history (and likely both some regional and some personal biases) as to why it was the JJ to begin with, but I speculate it as a 10% chance of a CCR1 or CCR2 course being taught on a non-RB80,RBK,JJ in the next two years.

There are units you can toss into a rack or to which you can add Lola'd 50s/7L (Meg, X, Liberty, SF, etc) but the JJ kind of simply works and GUE is happy to move slowly for non-urgent changes like that. People speculated for a period that it would be the Fathom, but lack of CE probably nips that one in the bud.




Edit: lol this comment aged well. Halcyon seems to be about to sell the oxygen scientific rebreather to the masses. TBD updates from GUE.

 

[sunny_diver]

@grantctobin lol yeah ... curious timing! Looks like the Halcyon Symbios will be revealed this weekend in Germany.

 

[Germie]

There are divers with a gue cert moving to a kiss mCCR unit. So it would not be strange to add an mCCR to the curriculum.

It is like with every agency, the chimney must smoke, money must be earned. So if there is an ask for it, there will be a course made. Maybe it will take a while, but it would not be strange.

From some other agencies I see now a 'dual ccr' course. I don't know what I will learn in such a course as I was already diving dual ccr before there was a course invented. I have adviced some people about the do's and don'ts in the past and when I started doing it I also got advice from some others. And I am not the only one who learned it this way and who 'teached' it to others this way. So these things are now written in a course and teached.
There were also ccr divers diving in a cave on a ccr before 2010, the year the ccr cave course was invented (it was about 2010, can also be 2009 or so).
So when people ask for a course, the course will be written. Agency independent.

 

[AJ]

There are divers with a gue cert moving to a kiss mCCR unit. So it would not be strange to add an mCCR to the curriculum.

Yeah, but then it's not GUE diving anymore In my opinion the JJ fits the GUE view on diving perfectly. It's robust and can be standardized. GUE CCR diving perspective is more than just about the unit used. It's the whole planning, unified equipment, etc. that's important to them. The unit is just a tool for GUE.

IANTD for instance is a lot more forgiving in that respect.

 

[Germie]

Yeah, but then it's not GUE diving anymore In my opinion the JJ fits the GUE view on diving perfectly. It's robust and can be standardized. GUE CCR diving perspective is more than just about the unit used. It's the whole planning, unified equipment, etc. that's important to them. The unit is just a tool for GUE.

IANTD for instance is a lot more forgiving in that respect.

A few years ago, ccr diving was no gue diving at all.
A few years ago, sidemount diving was no gue diving at all.
So they changed like others also do.

In 2010-2012, a computer was forbidden with gue, you did all deco by head. Ratio deco. Now a computer is allowed. So here they changed also. DIR in 2010 was ratio deco, bottomtimer, standard gases, standard equipment, gue was dir. Then it went as 'gue' and they stepped away from dir. but it was first the same. But also Swedtech for example teached the same and they were a little bit earlier I believe. But in that time, a computer was no gue. And now it is. A ccr was no gue, now it is. Sidemount was no gue, now it is. So the 'unified' equipment changed. Now also mixed teams with oc and ccr are possible.

CCR was first only after T2, but now you can do it after T1. It saves a lot on the gas bill.

DPV was not part of a gue course, now it is. Same with documentation diver, they also have now something as a diveleader/divemaster.

So all these things changed after 2012 till now. I saw when a ccr or sidemount was no gue diving a lot of gue divers moving to sidemount and ccr because they thought they needed it. And if you loose divers, it is hard to get them back. This is in every business the same. So now there are courses for ccr and sidemount. There is an ask for from divers, so a need is created.

This happens with every agency and every diver. So for me it won't be strange if there is a mCCR added in future or a sidemount ccr. But it will be a CE unit as there are a lot of divers in Europe, so here it is important. For example as instructor you can teach a non-CE unit, but you have to dive a CE-unit and your students don't have to. Also on some boats in France or a mine in Germany you are only welcome with a CE unit. A modified CE unit is no problem (is not CE anymore officially), but the basics must be CE.

Of course there will still be some standarisation. But as agency you also must do a step forward sometimes. And not only gue does. In my country for example a few years ago all the cmas/nob courses got an update with new books, new standards, more based on bouyancy. Most things improved, some things not. But they did a big step forward. Padi revised their complete technical course curriculum. Not always big changes, but they also changed and have new course materials. So it is not strange if even gue change things again in future as they also did in the past. That is not bad.

 

[jrgregory]

anyone got thoughts on how the Halcyon Symbios might fit into GUE curriculum?

Reddit comment from someone who saw it:
"Been at Boot today. It's a tiny chest mounted rebreather that looks like a Military O2-ccr with a port for dill in a stage bottle. So you can just clip it to your usual setup. Looks really cool and stupid light. Like 10kg maybe. They are waiting for CE approval expecting and of the year...
... It's literally just designed like pouch that you can clip to wherever you want. Imagine a rectangular backpack with a O2 bottle at the bottom and the loop coming out at the top. It even had one of these handles like a backpack to carry it."

Here is a screenshot from a Halcyon IG post:

 

[jrgregory]

another photo

 

[Nick_Radov]

In 2010-2012, a computer was forbidden with gue, you did all deco by head. Ratio deco. Now a computer is allowed. So here they changed also.

That is a misunderstanding. GUE standards never forbid dive computers. Students were always required to demonstrate competence in dive planning (including deco) and not be dependent on following a wrist computer, and that still applies today. GUE's own DecoPlanner software became the primary tool (with some manual adjustments) used in tech courses after that was released in 1997. Ratio deco was always taught as just a simple, pragmatic technique that could be used to approximate DecoPlanner results close enough within very limited depth and time bounds for bounce dives.

But also Swedtech for example teached the same and they were a little bit earlier I believe. But in that time, a computer was no gue. And now it is. A ccr was no gue, now it is. Sidemount was no gue, now it is. So the 'unified' equipment changed. Now also mixed teams with oc and ccr are possible.

I don't think GUE standards or training material ever explicitly prohibited mixed teams? Even back in the PSCR/RB80 days it was common to have mixed teams and I never saw an official statement that this was not possible. The same rules for gas planning still had to be followed such that the RB diver has enough gas to donate to the OC diver in case of loss.

DPV was not part of a gue course, now it is. Same with documentation diver, they also have now something as a diveleader/divemaster.

GUE has a "Recreational Dive Leader" course in their Standards, but it no longer appears in the training flowchart and none of their instructors have classes scheduled. I think it might have been abandoned?

 

[Germie]

No, in 2010 and 2011 you must put a Shearwater in bottomtime modus. So you was allowed to wear a computer, but not using it. In that time, trimix computers were not that common as they are nowadays. I did not have one, I bought my first one end of 2012. You had the very old VR3 computers, Shearwater had already some and the OSTC2 from Heinrich Weihkamp was there. But even from other agencies, most divers in that time used slates to remember their diveplanning. I have done dives up to 117m depth on oc without a trimix computer, just by planning. (The good old time when helium was affordable ).

Diving an eCCR in a gue team before gue introduced an eCCR was really notdone. We have done some dives for project baseline and they always wanted to have the CCR divers together as 'it could give problems in a mixed team'. Now the project Baseline dives faded away slowly, I don't know why exactly, but between 2010 and end of 2014 we had a quite active goup. But then some quitted diving, others found other buddies, etc. I know when an gue instructor posted a video on fb where they were diving mixed team, then a lot of questions where asked. This was just a short time before the JJ came in the curriculum.
So happely there is some evolution going on, and they don't stick with the old things.

The recreational dive leader course is really new, just 1 month old or so and 'invented' in the Netherlands. There it is given 1 time and it is till now the first and only t ime. So there are only 3 certified dive leaders worldwide now.

Tilburg viert primeur met eerste 3 GUE Dive Leaders wereldwijd

Alles wat er leeft en speelt in de stad

tilburg.com

I know the instructor and he is very nice and friendly. He is teaching quite a lot, so there was a need for a dive leader. Gue wants to promote the recreational part of diving more and more, as most divers never go to tech. I know, his divecenter also teaches padi courses, but there is also an ask for the gue way. He does not live in my backyard, but if we meet each other, there are always friendly words.
So it is not abandoned, it is brand new.

1 funny thing I see in the tech1 documentation from 2008 is they they mention the tech3 and cave3, but these are never developped. They don't mention rec3 which is nowadays a course you can do (and was a time iso certified on the same level als diveleader/divemaster).
Decompression software was already used that time. But they also had the ratio deco (which was first introduced by Swedtech).
And another thing is that they adviced for pfo testing in that time, a thing that still is not adviced by any other agencie if there is no reason to.

In earlier days, GUE was DIR, but now they moved away from the term 'DIR'. In 2013, in the rebreatherprogramm of gue, there was mention that it must be the Halcyon SCR. So no CCR.

But I have seen the Halcyon chest mount ccr on a diveshow and this can be a next model I think, but I also think mCCR can be an option.