Glove promo is over/post reviews here

[Teamcasa]

you are way off the mark Dave, and we both know it. Apples and orange comparison. I appreciate you wanting a product to succed and I do to. I don't and cannot buy into the argument of a product which encourages poor SCUBA practice. We will have to agree to disagree on this issue.

Off the mark? Just because we disagree does not mean we can not discuss the real issue. (Using your hands with these gloves) But how we approach it seems much different. For me, I won't boo hoo any product without trying it simply because it differs from the regular diving paradym.

That paradym BTW, was established long BEFORE this product was introduced and while other webbed gloves have been around a long time, none have worked very well. Today, maybe these will and a new paradym will be established.

I suppose you want to call me an A$$_hole because I have a different view? Or am I arrogant since we don't see eye to eye on this?

Certainly not. I do consider myself as having a reasonable mind however.

 

[ScubaSteve]

I suppose you want to call me an A$$_hole because I have a different view? Or am I arrogant since we don't see eye to eye on this?

Yes you are arrogant ! Just kidding. I do not believe that these are a good idea for your everyday scuba diver however I can see the point that Dave (and others) is trying to make. I think it is safe to say that everytime a truly new product was introduced that called into question our training or beliefs, most declined it outright. However, at one time the world was flat...etc.. Sometimes, we do not know we have been doing things less than perfectly until it is proven to us. I am not saying that we are doing anything wrong....just that sometimes we need to be shown the forest in the trees because of our beliefs.

Quite frankly, I did laps in my pool this weekend and found very clearly that if I used my hands/arms as additonal propulsion (by really working my arms to help) as opposed to just fins, I had to exert much more effort. This is NOT what a diver wants to do. This is in fact very dangerous. Granted I might have gone faster but fast IS NOT what I want underwater. And if I ever find myself needing to cover a long distance to rescue, the we as divers have failed each other. This is a matter of people failing people...not equipment failures. So as a means of propulsion I disagree. I can see the periodic benefit for fine tuning direction but do not see my needs ever reaching a point where I would consider the loss of dexterity a benefit.

 

[Roy McKinney]

Clearly, these aren't for you.... or me. But, if they can add some function to a diver's tool kit, without affecting my dive, I think they're great.

Most divers don't have a back kick and won't ever take steps to get one. It take an a lot of practice, even with the right fin. If they can slap on these gloves and get better control, why not? If they can control their arms and are using the gloves to tweak their movements, where is the problem?

I wouldn't be caught dead wearing these, but I have seen countless divers who could have benefited from them.

Roy,

Sorry to bag on your buddy in the video. I'm sure he's a fine diver, but the video does not demonstrate practical use of your product in a way that compliments what we teach in OW courses.

The biggest benefit of these gloves I see is that they allow a person to maintain position or even back up without much effort. While using the hands to accomplish this is less than ideal, it's better than nothing by far.

Thanks Dave,

BIG learning curve here! I'm just trying to take it all in, the good with the bad and see where we end up. No hard feelings on this end.

Roy

 

[DebbyDiver]

Randy, Dave is a true gentleman and he would not call you names.

And, I agree with him that openminded people may find ways to improve their sport. If you've read my reviews, I am really enjoying one-handed precision micromovements by using mine close to my waist. Are they applicable for every dive? NO. But I'm having a blast using them.

 

[diverdoug1]

It's a good thing improvements in dive gear is not static or we would still be using the J valve, watch and horse collars.

I hope the boys over on the vintage diving gear forum don't see this post!

 

[simmonsjr]

you are way off the mark Dave, and we both know it. Apples and orange comparison. I appreciate you wanting a product to succed and I do to. I don't and cannot buy into the argument of a product which encourages poor SCUBA practice.

We will have to agree to disagree on this issue.

I suppose you want to call me an A$$_hole because I have a different view? Or am I arrogant since we don't see eye to eye on this?

Randy,

I would like to make one observation, if I may. On your profile you state that you subscribe to DIR methodology. Mightn't that be the reason that you are hesitant to try this product? After all DIR is all about keeping things simple and removing potential failure points (and I am specifically referencing new product designs that have not, for lack of better terminology, received the DIR "stamp of approval"). If I am not mistaken the DIR approach also mandates that buddy teams should have an intimate knowledge of and familiarity with ALL of their buddy's equipment. With that training philosophy it's pretty easy to see how you would be uncomfortable trying an innovative product which operates outside of the bounds within which you have been trained.

Please, do not mistake this observation as any sort of attack against you or DIR methodology. There is a lot to be said for the precision diving skills that DIR divers showcase (One of these days I plan on doing Fundies myself - a decision that I came to after watching a DIR diver in action, I might add.) it is just that DIR is so regimented that it becomes difficult to operate outside of the existing norms.

One final thing to consider: no diving agency advocates the use of the hands because of their inefficiency (workload versus payoff). In the past that was unquestionably the case; however, these gloves change things because they increase the efficiency of the hands to such a degree that you are no longer penalized (from an efficiency standpoint) for using your arms. They aren't going to replace your fins (as your legs are much stronger than your upper body, but they certainly aren't going to hurt you to try. After all, training standards are constantly revised in the face of new technology. Time will tell if that will be the case here.

 

[RJP]

No diving agency advocates the use of the hands because of their inefficiency. In the past that was unquestionably the case; however, these gloves change things...

"What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun." Ecclesiastes 1:9-14

Webbed gloves have been around for quite some time - in fact Leonardo DaVinci described them in the late 1400's - yet no agency has changed their view on the use of webbed gloves for diving. I think we can agree that 500+ years is a more-than-sufficient evaluation period.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Randy,

I would like to make one observation, if I may. On your profile you state that you subscribe to DIR methodology. Mightn't that be the reason that you are hesitant to try this product?

I am not a DIR diver and have little interest in trying these. So, you needn't go much further.

......One final thing to consider: no diving agency advocates the use of the hands because of their inefficiency (workload versus payoff). In the past that was unquestionably the case; however, these gloves change things because they increase the efficiency of the hands to such a degree that you are no longer penalized (from an efficiency standpoint) for using your arms......

You have tremendous amounts of strength in your legs. Using your arms to proprel yourself underwater takes more effort than using your legs and you therefore will consume more air and run the risk of CO2 build-up. This is actually a very dangerous thing.

I do not believe the should be used in mainstream SCUBA however, just following your thought process I will play along. If a diver were to use them only for minor adjustments and not as an added means of propulsion, then the only harm I see is the loss of dexterity. This can somewhat be compensated for however I do not believe one can overcome it altogether and unfortunately this would likely not show until the poop hits the preverbial fan.

I will continue to try and remain open to new concepts however for these reasons and others that remain unstated, I just do not see these being a good idea for a scuba diver.

 

[Zippsy]

The worst thing about this thread is that it is making me come too close to breaking my vow of never having more posts here than dives. I always worried that if that happened, I'd end up a close-minded overly opinionated cyber-diver. I need to check out again for a while. I'll check back in few months to see if the same people are repeating the same opinions using the same arguments. It could be fun.

 

[ScubaSteve]

<snicker>