GLightcap
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I agree with you
Ginnie Springs diver missing - Florida
- Thread starter DandyDon
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You may be surprised at how much you're not allowed to do in a compliant IT setup, compared to a non-compliant one. Anything from basic bit storage to research, it's generally cheaper to just say no to HIPAA-covered data.
It's about data sharing now, which is where it may affect record requests. It's not that it's hard: you just need someone to sign off on it with a statement they're qualified to do so, but if a place has data (anywhere) that may potentially be covered, and doesn't have that someone they work with regularly, they wouldn't want to touch your request with a barge pole.
It's not pressure they lack. They have no desire to divulge a thing. When I broached this subject, I was once told "We don't answer to you!" I followed up with the logical question: Who do you answer to? My query was deleted and just like that, I was banned from their forum for having a 'bad attitude'.
Aren't you old enough to be in the good ol' boys network yet?
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alternatively the IUCRR could just release the reports for all of their incidents instead of the ones that they choose to release...
clownfishsydney
Contributor
In Australia, the various State Police Forces are responsible for any investigations into deaths that are not natural. As far as I know, none of the States routinely involves experts from the diving field when doing investigations into diving related deaths. There are a few exceptions, but that is more when the other people involved have insisted that the Police speak to experts (and not Police divers who are certainly not experts in recreational diving).
I spoke to the then just retired head of DAN Asia South Pacific a few years ago about trying to set up a system where the Police refer all diving deaths to DAN and some independent experts to provide advice. He told me that DAN already "investigates" diving deaths, but really, all they do is review publicly available information and make comments. The problem with this is that the publicly available information is, in almost all cases, not extensive or, for that matter, accurate.
As I have mentioned here before, I have been involved in the investigation of three diving related deaths. One of course was the Tina Watson death where the Queensland and Alabama Police had no expert involvement and if they had, it would have been straight away dismissed as a simple accident.
Another case was an American diver living in New Zealand who died in Vanuatu (she should never have been let dive on the wreck by the dive company). In this case, I got involved early and eventually the NZ Police (who were investigating the death for the Coroner of a NZ resident) contacted me and sought my views on a number of things, especially related to locations inside the wreck of the SS President Coolidge and comparing to the diver's dive computer and the dive guide's conflicting statements about what happened and where. In this case, nothing could really be achieved except I helped the incompetent dive company to close up and leave the country.
The last case was the death of a friend 10 years ago next week on a dive I organised and was on. In this case, I insisted that the Police officer who investigated (just a normal general duties officer, not a detective) talk to certain experts in dive medicine. This led to the Coroner making certain recommendations about further studies into IPE.
I know of at least two other deaths where the full details have been blocked from coming out publicly, presumably so that they would not sully the memory of the divers who died since they had stuffed up badly.
I have told my family and friends that if I ever die while diving, they are not to block any release of details about what happened, even if it shows that I fuc&ed up big time. It is only by releasing such information that other divers can learn from errors that proved fatal and that even highly qualified and experienced divers can and do make mistakes.
I spoke to the then just retired head of DAN Asia South Pacific a few years ago about trying to set up a system where the Police refer all diving deaths to DAN and some independent experts to provide advice. He told me that DAN already "investigates" diving deaths, but really, all they do is review publicly available information and make comments. The problem with this is that the publicly available information is, in almost all cases, not extensive or, for that matter, accurate.
As I have mentioned here before, I have been involved in the investigation of three diving related deaths. One of course was the Tina Watson death where the Queensland and Alabama Police had no expert involvement and if they had, it would have been straight away dismissed as a simple accident.
Another case was an American diver living in New Zealand who died in Vanuatu (she should never have been let dive on the wreck by the dive company). In this case, I got involved early and eventually the NZ Police (who were investigating the death for the Coroner of a NZ resident) contacted me and sought my views on a number of things, especially related to locations inside the wreck of the SS President Coolidge and comparing to the diver's dive computer and the dive guide's conflicting statements about what happened and where. In this case, nothing could really be achieved except I helped the incompetent dive company to close up and leave the country.
The last case was the death of a friend 10 years ago next week on a dive I organised and was on. In this case, I insisted that the Police officer who investigated (just a normal general duties officer, not a detective) talk to certain experts in dive medicine. This led to the Coroner making certain recommendations about further studies into IPE.
I know of at least two other deaths where the full details have been blocked from coming out publicly, presumably so that they would not sully the memory of the divers who died since they had stuffed up badly.
I have told my family and friends that if I ever die while diving, they are not to block any release of details about what happened, even if it shows that I fuc&ed up big time. It is only by releasing such information that other divers can learn from errors that proved fatal and that even highly qualified and experienced divers can and do make mistakes.
John the Pom
Contributor
Indeed - one of the few things I'm certain about is that, once I'm dead, I'm really not going to care what people are saying about me!
Data is most valuable when it is unbiased. If information about the most serious accidents is suppressed, then we run the risk of "survivor plane" bias.
Copy and pasted from CDF regarding this specifically, because I haven't seen it yet, and most folks casually on Scubaboard aren't on CDF:
"
My name is Ken Hill and I have been an IUCRR member for the past 25 years and its Director for the past 15 years.
Kelley texted me asking me to post a little about the IUCRR. It?s founding was done in the day of cave fatalities that involved mostly divers without cave training or cave divers that violated the rules of accident analysis.
The IUCRR is a Florida Not For Profit Corporation that is all volunteer and its SOLE purpose is to provide trained cave divers to assist law enforcement in the rescue/recovery of victims in an underwater cave. The IUCRR has worked very hard to maintain a level of professionalism. In addition we have been rewarded with gratitude and thanks by families and friends of victims we recovered.
The IUCRR is NOT a cave diving organization. It?s accident analysis is forwarded to Cave Diving organizations and it is for their safety officers to promulgate.
Its reports are prepared SOLELY for law enforcement use. They are complete and objective. There is NO speculation in the report. Law Enforcement trusts us to look at what they consider a homicide and a Crime Scene. Our divers make notes or provide photographic evidence of what we see. We are their eyes and ears. Only when finished with documentation do we attempt an extraction. Extractions can be difficult. Gear may have to be removed. Bones may have to be broken in some of the worst cases.
Once our report is turned in Law Enforcement does what does, evaluates it, sometimes asking our professional opinion. It also waits, sometimes months for toxicology reports, autopsy and gear and gas analysis etc. We are in no position to hurry things up.
As to reports not being published like years ago. Well it is 2021. We deal with threats of litigation. One example is the recovery diver at School Sink who was sued by the victims family. We encounter many fatalities the may fall under HIPAA rules. We don?t have a legal department to tell us whats good to go, or not.
We reserve the right to notify the Cave Diving community of an issue that is of an imminent threat to all divers. Other than that the reports belong to Law Enforcement we cannot release them without their approval. And as already said that may take months. We do what we can. If you think we are about keeping secrets you have your own issues to deal with. Use sunshine laws of the State of Florida if you want all the details.
You might want to test what I say by doing something simple. On your way home or going to work if you see an auto accident stop!!! Go over to the Trooper, Deputy or Police officer and give him your internet handle, then demand the who, what, where, when, why and how of the accident so you can post that info to save yourself and other motorists from a similar fate. ..... Let me know how that works out for you.
Accident analysis is important but if you trust your training, trust your dive plan, trust your gear and that of your dive buddy you?ll be fine
I?m doing this from an iPhone so please excuse whatever!
"
"
My name is Ken Hill and I have been an IUCRR member for the past 25 years and its Director for the past 15 years.
Kelley texted me asking me to post a little about the IUCRR. It?s founding was done in the day of cave fatalities that involved mostly divers without cave training or cave divers that violated the rules of accident analysis.
The IUCRR is a Florida Not For Profit Corporation that is all volunteer and its SOLE purpose is to provide trained cave divers to assist law enforcement in the rescue/recovery of victims in an underwater cave. The IUCRR has worked very hard to maintain a level of professionalism. In addition we have been rewarded with gratitude and thanks by families and friends of victims we recovered.
The IUCRR is NOT a cave diving organization. It?s accident analysis is forwarded to Cave Diving organizations and it is for their safety officers to promulgate.
Its reports are prepared SOLELY for law enforcement use. They are complete and objective. There is NO speculation in the report. Law Enforcement trusts us to look at what they consider a homicide and a Crime Scene. Our divers make notes or provide photographic evidence of what we see. We are their eyes and ears. Only when finished with documentation do we attempt an extraction. Extractions can be difficult. Gear may have to be removed. Bones may have to be broken in some of the worst cases.
Once our report is turned in Law Enforcement does what does, evaluates it, sometimes asking our professional opinion. It also waits, sometimes months for toxicology reports, autopsy and gear and gas analysis etc. We are in no position to hurry things up.
As to reports not being published like years ago. Well it is 2021. We deal with threats of litigation. One example is the recovery diver at School Sink who was sued by the victims family. We encounter many fatalities the may fall under HIPAA rules. We don?t have a legal department to tell us whats good to go, or not.
We reserve the right to notify the Cave Diving community of an issue that is of an imminent threat to all divers. Other than that the reports belong to Law Enforcement we cannot release them without their approval. And as already said that may take months. We do what we can. If you think we are about keeping secrets you have your own issues to deal with. Use sunshine laws of the State of Florida if you want all the details.
You might want to test what I say by doing something simple. On your way home or going to work if you see an auto accident stop!!! Go over to the Trooper, Deputy or Police officer and give him your internet handle, then demand the who, what, where, when, why and how of the accident so you can post that info to save yourself and other motorists from a similar fate. ..... Let me know how that works out for you.
Accident analysis is important but if you trust your training, trust your dive plan, trust your gear and that of your dive buddy you?ll be fine
I?m doing this from an iPhone so please excuse whatever!
"
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