Question Genesis 3.1 vs Cuda X Tech - efficiency and range?

[stuartv]

The 18650/21700 debate. Well its not really up for debate, theres a very specific reason why @Jon Nellis uses 18650s and it has everything to do with his UN38.3 certification.
FAA Allows passengers to carry up to TWO batteries <160Wh -- and as many as you can carry <100Wh, the slices Jon uses hold 8 18650 cells netting 98Wh (hence warp core design follows the rules)
The closest one could get with 21700s would be 5 cells and only 90Wh but theres something very important with having 8 cells over 5. Its divisible by 2.

The Genesis 3.1 uses 9 battery plates with a 2s4p config to make a total 18s4p
The Genesis 3.2 uses 18 battery plates in a 1s8p config to make a total of 18s8p
They are the same plates just configured slightly differently.

Oh and a UN38.3 cert costs like $10-15k so why fix something thats not broken.

Most of the power tool companies moved to 21700 (except makita....) simply because its a cheaper $/Wh as 21700 and 18650 cells cost almost the same but have a much higher discharge rate and about 45% more capacity...

Fair enough.

But, what if each layer was made with a removeable jumper separating the two sides, so you still had 8 cells (but they were 21700s)? Each layer would be 2 individual "batteries" at 74 W-Hr.

21700s are a little heavier than 18650s, so maybe only do 8 layers, instead of 9? Space them a little further apart to accommodate the slightly thicker cells and allow better cooling. Still have over 1150 W-Hr in something that could potentially carry even more payload than the G3.1 (i.e. more positively buoyant before weighting).

And possibly also allow a higher current drain, so the motor could be tuned up for even more thrust? (Samsung 50S cells, 5000 mAh and rated for 25 amps?)

More range AND more thrust AND lighter weight than a Seacraft Future 1000. Do a long-tube version at 2300 W-Hr and outrun the Seacraft Ghost 2000.

Warp Core 2.0? Can be installed in an existing Genesis tube as an upgrade?

 

[Jona Silverstein]

It all burns back to the UN38.3 and IMHO there isnt a large enough market to warrant doing another significant revision to the warp core for quite a few more years, We have reached the limits on what 18650s and 21700s can provide in terms of capacity.

More jumpers = more connections
more connections = more opportunities for the end user to mess it up. This is why I prefer the seacraft style sticks (and working on a similar option for older submerge units)

Turning up the power always has caveats. Nellis guaruntees that his units will run full bore from start to finish. As you know the new DX units can only support top speed for a very limited amount of time as it all has to do with cooling.

I shove over 1300W through my Blacktip (which is a **** ton) but even with added cooling to the ESC and Motor, it can only take it for a few minutes before I reach my thermal limits.

Drag underwater is exponential, as other have noted one very efficient diver can cruise at 150fpm using ~150W. but for me to exceed 300fpm, takes over 1100W

 

[stuartv]

It all burns back to the UN38.3 and IMHO there isnt a large enough market to warrant doing another significant revision to the warp core for quite a few more years, We have reached the limits on what 18650s and 21700s can provide in terms of capacity.

I don't know, man. A warp core that fits in a G2.1/3.1 and gives 1150 W-Hr sounds pretty awesome, to me....

It seems like Mr Nellis is building and selling scooters just as fast as he possibly can. I agree that it's probably not worth taking time away from that to design and manufacture a new warp core.

But, as soon as 3.x sales catch up to demand and production slows down a little, then it definitely seems like selling Warp Core 2.0 upgrades to all the customers that currently have original warp cores is something that would be on the table for consideration. Along with a redesigned tail that has an upgraded version of the Sentry integrated into it....

Time will tell.

It's an exciting time to be alive! LOL

More jumpers = more connections
more connections = more opportunities for the end user to mess it up. This is why I prefer the seacraft style sticks (and working on a similar option for older submerge units)

I never saw a Genesis in person before, until I received my 2.2.

I read the Warp Core manual and then proceeded to completely disassemble it, swap all the 18650s out for new ones, and put it all back together. Because I metered the voltage on all 144 new cells AND all 144 cells that I took out, the whole process took me a bit under 2 hours.

And it worked perfectly when I put it back in the scooter.

I would choose that over the Seacraft-style sticks any day of the week.

Those Seacraft 97Wh sticks are $339 apiece! Even if you can make them and sell your version for half that, it's still $170. I can replace all the cells on a warp core layer (so, 98Wh worth of battery) for about $40.

And let's be real, replacing the batteries in the Seacraft or a Warp Core is an "every few years" thing, at best. Maybe every 5 to even 10 years, maybe. When I do, and I'm replacing all of them, $400 for 850 W-Hr (in a G3.1), and an hour of two of my time sounds way better than ($170 * 8 =) $1360 to replace them all in a Seacraft Future 1000 (that's really only 780Wh, in TSA-compliant trim). Much less the almost $2800 that Seacraft charges for a complete set of batteries.

I'll stick with jumpers.

Turning up the power always has caveats. Nellis guaruntees that his units will run full bore from start to finish. As you know the new DX units can only support top speed for a very limited amount of time as it all has to do with cooling.

I have no illusions that I NEED more thrust than what a Genesis provides. 90# is more than most have and I doubt I'll ever run mine at full throttle for any other reason than just entertainment value.

But, the Genesis SW claims 125# of thrust. I can't help but wonder what that is like. And also wonder if it's the same motor just being fed more current. I dont need it. But, that doesn't mean I don't want it...

 

[Superlyte27]

I don't know, man. A warp core that fits in a G2.1/3.1 and gives 1150 W-Hr sounds pretty awesome, to me....

It seems like Mr Nellis is building and selling scooters just as fast as he possibly can. I agree that it's probably not worth taking time away from that to design and manufacture a new warp core.

But, as soon as 3.x sales catch up to demand and production slows down a little, then it definitely seems like selling Warp Core 2.0 upgrades to all the customers that currently have original warp cores is something that would be on the table for consideration. Along with a redesigned tail that has an upgraded version of the Sentry integrated into it....

Time will tell.

It's an exciting time to be alive! LOL



I never saw a Genesis in person before, until I received my 2.2.

I read the Warp Core manual and then proceeded to completely disassemble it, swap all the 18650s out for new ones, and put it all back together. Because I metered the voltage on all 144 new cells AND all 144 cells that I took out, the whole process took me a bit under 2 hours.

And it worked perfectly when I put it back in the scooter.

I would choose that over the Seacraft-style sticks any day of the week.

Those Seacraft 97Wh sticks are $339 apiece! Even if you can make them and sell your version for half that, it's still $170. I can replace all the cells on a warp core layer (so, 98Wh worth of battery) for about $40.

And let's be real, replacing the batteries in the Seacraft or a Warp Core is an "every few years" thing, at best. Maybe every 5 to even 10 years, maybe. When I do, and I'm replacing all of them, $400 for 850 W-Hr (in a G3.1), and an hour of two of my time sounds way better than ($170 * 8 =) $1360 to replace them all in a Seacraft Future 1000 (that's really only 780Wh, in TSA-compliant trim). Much less the almost $2800 that Seacraft charges for a complete set of batteries.

I'll stick with jumpers.



I have no illusions that I NEED more thrust than what a Genesis provides. 90# is more than most have and I doubt I'll ever run mine at full throttle for any other reason than just entertainment value.

But, the Genesis SW claims 125# of thrust. I can't help but wonder what that is like. And also wonder if it's the same motor just being fed more current. I dont need it. But, that doesn't mean I don't want it...

90lbs of continued thrust in full tech gear gets to be painful. At least you don’t have to worry about that with any of the competitors

 

[stuartv]

90lbs of continued thrust in full tech gear gets to be painful. At least you don’t have to worry about that with any of the competitors

Whatever it takes to beat my buddy that has a CudaX is worth it!

(have I mentioned that I roadraced motorcycles for 17 years? Some things never change...)