I don’t think that played a roll in the spanking that Suex and Seacraft took.
Question Genesis 3.1 vs Cuda X Tech - efficiency and range?
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if all had been equal it would have been the tie breaker, I'm surprised the others were looked at given that Dive Xtras is also produced in the USA, but from an engineering perspective it's not really close with the Suex and Seacraft either so it's not surprising
brysonjk
Contributor
I came here for the headline because I searched "Genesis 3.1 vs. Cuda X". I'm assuming by the messages that Genesis won the Navy contract. The problem is that you can't trust a government contract as any indication of quality. Maybe back in the day, but not now. Most contracts are LPTA (Lowest Price Technically Acceptable). I don't own a DPV yet and have been researching for a possible purchase next year. The Cuda X looks great because it uses batteries that I currently own, and can have a set standing by if needed. I do really like the batter stack on the Genesis as well. From an engineer's mindset, I love the idea of breaking out banks of batteries to perform diagnostics if needed, not to mention user-replaceable cells. I just wish they had an app for iPhones and support for the newer 21700 cells.
OP
There IS an iPhone app. This link is right there on the Logic Manuals page:
Xiaoxiang BMS
With Xiaoxiang / jiabaida BMS Smart BMS you can build simple Li-Ion or LiFePo4 battery packs. For camping, car, solar or e-bikes. iOS app for Xiaoxiang / jiabaida BMS (JBD-SP15S001 / JBD-SP05S002) allows you to monitor voltage of the cells, total capacity, charging/discharging current and...
apps.apple.com
I got my Genesis going with all new batteries about 30 minutes ago and the iPhone app seems to work just fine.
The 21700 cell thing sounds cool on paper. But, I just put all brand new cells in this Genesis 2.2 - the exact cells the Logic manual calls for. I ordered 3 more than required for just in case I had any bad ones. So, 147 cells and it was $710, delivered.
That gives me 1700 W-Hr of capacity. I'm okay with not having the extra range that 21700 cells would give - especially given that (I *think*) they are a fair bit more expensive.
To be honest, I'd have way more range than I need, even with a 2.1 or 3.1 with 850 W-Hr.
$500 for a pair of Dewalt 12 Ah batteries (432 W-Hr) versus $700 for 18650s that yield 850 W-Hr.... I feel like the Cuda X is just no contest.
The Cuda X is $7000 plus $550 for 2 x 12Ah batteries and a charger.
The Genesis 3.1 is $8750, including the batteries and a charger. And it's at least 50% more range. If I were buying new and spending money in that price range, the extra $1200 for the Genesis seems like a no-brainer.
This is on top of my personal experience with my BlackTip and those Dewalt 12Ah batteries. Which is to say, they are fine in a $1500 scooter. I do NOT want Dewalt PTBs in my "big boy" scooter.
Why, you may ask? My Dewalts were purchased new, together. They have only ever been used in my BlackTip and charged on my Dewalt charger. So, they have identical usage history. And yet, I've had my BlackTip cut out on me a few times when I really needed it and was working it hard. The reason it cut out was a battery imbalance. I.e. One pack or the other dropped in voltage enough to trip an error and make the scooter cut off.
And then the problem is who is responsible for fixing something like that? Dive-X won't do anything about it because they're going to say it's a problem with the batteries, which are Dewalt's problem to solve. And obviously Dewalt has no reason to do anything about it. There's nothing wrong with either battery. They are just different enough in their manufacturing that, under a sustained high load one drops in voltage (or more likely just sags) more quickly than the other.
And for the scooters that use 4 PTBs, it just seems like you'd be even more likely to run into problems from an imbalance.
In a "big boy" scooter, I want it to have onboard battery management that is sophisticated enough to not have that problem. And also not ever be in a situation where the scooter manufacturer is able to avoid addressing a problem simply by saying "it's your batteries. You need to get new ones or deal with the battery manufacturer."
OP
I totally agree that you can't judge based on who got the contract. But, I think the point was to learn what the test results were that informed the procurement. Sure, it's possible they all met the specs and so the cheapest one got the contract. But, seeing the actual data from the tests would be interesting - and I think what's being implied here is that, regardless of who got the contract, the Genesis spanked the others in the actual test results.
brysonjk
Contributor
There IS an iPhone app. This link is right there on the Logic Manuals page:
Xiaoxiang BMS
With Xiaoxiang / jiabaida BMS Smart BMS you can build simple Li-Ion or LiFePo4 battery packs. For camping, car, solar or e-bikes. iOS app for Xiaoxiang / jiabaida BMS (JBD-SP15S001 / JBD-SP05S002) allows you to monitor voltage of the cells, total capacity, charging/discharging current and...apps.apple.com
I got my Genesis going with all new batteries about 30 minutes ago and the iPhone app seems to work just fine.
The 21700 cell thing sounds cool on paper. But, I just put all brand new cells in this Genesis 2.2 - the exact cells the Logic manual calls for. I ordered 3 more than required for just in case I had any bad ones. So, 147 cells and it was $710, delivered.
That gives me 1700 W-Hr of capacity. I'm okay with not having the extra range that 21700 cells would give - especially given that (I *think*) they are a fair bit more expensive.
To be honest, I'd have way more range than I need, even with a 2.1 or 3.1 with 850 W-Hr.
$500 for a pair of Dewalt 12 Ah batteries (432 W-Hr) versus $700 for 18650s that yield 850 W-Hr.... I feel like the Cuda X is just no contest.
The Cuda X is $7000 plus $550 for 2 x 12Ah batteries and a charger.
The Genesis 3.1 is $8750, including the batteries and a charger. And it's at least 50% more range. If I were buying new and spending money in that price range, the extra $1200 for the Genesis seems like a no-brainer.
This is on top of my personal experience with my BlackTip and those Dewalt 12Ah batteries. Which is to say, they are fine in a $1500 scooter. I do NOT want Dewalt PTBs in my "big boy" scooter.
Why, you may ask? My Dewalts were purchased new, together. They have only ever been used in my BlackTip and charged on my Dewalt charger. So, they have identical usage history. And yet, I've had my BlackTip cut out on me a few times when I really needed it and was working it hard. The reason it cut out was a battery imbalance. I.e. One pack or the other dropped in voltage enough to trip an error and make the scooter cut off.
And then the problem is who is responsible for fixing something like that? Dive-X won't do anything about it because they're going to say it's a problem with the batteries, which are Dewalt's problem to solve. And obviously Dewalt has no reason to do anything about it. There's nothing wrong with either battery. They are just different enough in their manufacturing that, under a sustained high load one drops in voltage (or more likely just sags) more quickly than the other.
And for the scooters that use 4 PTBs, it just seems like you'd be even more likely to run into problems from an imbalance.
In a "big boy" scooter, I want it to have onboard battery management that is sophisticated enough to not have that problem. And also not ever be in a situation where the scooter manufacturer is able to avoid addressing a problem simply by saying "it's your batteries. You need to get new ones or deal with the battery manufacturer."
There is an app for iPhone. I use it weekly.
Your post is jam-packed with amazingly great points. Thank you for taking the time to respond. Genesis is now at the top of my list.
OP
For the record, you did not mention Seacraft. But, while I think the Cuda X is no comparison, I think the Seacraft Future 1000 is a totally viable alternative to the Genesis 3.1. There are pros and cons to each.
I was actually looking at buying a Future 1000 when I found a too-good-to-pass-up deal on this Genesis 2.2. On paper (as I've not driven either, yet), I like the Genesis better. But, I think if I'd found a smokin' deal on a Seacraft instead, I'd have bought it and still be perfectly happy in the long run.
If you're in Maryland, well, it is a bit of a hike, but Dana Hunt, at Hunt's Dive Shop, is up in Alexandria Bay, NY, and he is a Seacraft dealer. And a TOP notch individual. If you got up there, he can probably let you demo a Seacraft.
Drive them both. If you want longer burn time, faster speed, ease of use, and less problems, buy the Genesis.
Seacraft has some quirks that leave you broke down in the middle of a dive. It’s a safety feature to protect the scooter but instead leaves you in the middle of a cave.
Also, the throttle just sucks.
Jona Silverstein
Contributor
Wow bunch of notes to touch up on here.
The Cuda X is going to be more efficient simply due to stator design. The motor is a massive pancake.
Tahoe Benchmark... Yeah its been on my list for quite a while but I have too many projects on my plate to deal with it anytime in the foreseeable future. The whole like house/shop renovation thing has taken almost all of my time. BUT I would much rather see a measurement for Thrust:Time as it would be a better representation than SPEED as theres so many different variables that simply cant be accounted for. They did their best during TBM and gave us a significant amount of information that we previously didnt. But as others have noted. Its been 13 years...
The 18650/21700 debate. Well its not really up for debate, theres a very specific reason why @Jon Nellis uses 18650s and it has everything to do with his UN38.3 certification.
FAA Allows passengers to carry up to TWO batteries <160Wh -- and as many as you can carry <100Wh, the slices Jon uses hold 8 18650 cells netting 98Wh (hence warp core design follows the rules)
The closest one could get with 21700s would be 5 cells and only 90Wh but theres something very important with having 8 cells over 5. Its divisible by 2.
The Genesis 3.1 uses 9 battery plates with a 2s4p config to make a total 18s4p
The Genesis 3.2 uses 18 battery plates in a 1s8p config to make a total of 18s8p
They are the same plates just configured slightly differently.
Oh and a UN38.3 cert costs like $10-15k so why fix something thats not broken.
Most of the power tool companies moved to 21700 (except makita....) simply because its a cheaper $/Wh as 21700 and 18650 cells cost almost the same but have a much higher discharge rate and about 45% more capacity...
The Cuda X is going to be more efficient simply due to stator design. The motor is a massive pancake.
Tahoe Benchmark... Yeah its been on my list for quite a while but I have too many projects on my plate to deal with it anytime in the foreseeable future. The whole like house/shop renovation thing has taken almost all of my time. BUT I would much rather see a measurement for Thrust:Time as it would be a better representation than SPEED as theres so many different variables that simply cant be accounted for. They did their best during TBM and gave us a significant amount of information that we previously didnt. But as others have noted. Its been 13 years...
The 18650/21700 debate. Well its not really up for debate, theres a very specific reason why @Jon Nellis uses 18650s and it has everything to do with his UN38.3 certification.
FAA Allows passengers to carry up to TWO batteries <160Wh -- and as many as you can carry <100Wh, the slices Jon uses hold 8 18650 cells netting 98Wh (hence warp core design follows the rules)
The closest one could get with 21700s would be 5 cells and only 90Wh but theres something very important with having 8 cells over 5. Its divisible by 2.
The Genesis 3.1 uses 9 battery plates with a 2s4p config to make a total 18s4p
The Genesis 3.2 uses 18 battery plates in a 1s8p config to make a total of 18s8p
They are the same plates just configured slightly differently.
Oh and a UN38.3 cert costs like $10-15k so why fix something thats not broken.
Most of the power tool companies moved to 21700 (except makita....) simply because its a cheaper $/Wh as 21700 and 18650 cells cost almost the same but have a much higher discharge rate and about 45% more capacity...
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