Gear config, Long primary

[lamont]

Yah,

I use different numbers than you do...but the same principals.

For one, I don't use a figure of 1cuft per diver from bottom to top. I use as a general rule - and this might change depending on my buddy's particulars - .6 working .4 resting...for me...and 1 working .6 resting for my OOA buddy. And I think that is conservative.

The first time I ever figured out my average SAC rate for an entire dive (around dive #6 or so), I had around 1.1 cu ft / min over the entire dive. That was just a newbie diver and stressed out a bit by the ****ty viz -- that was without thinking I was going to die.

I don't agree that in an OOA situation that consumption rates should sky-rocket. Both divers should be trained and have enough experience that the situation should be handled relatively calmly. Instead of..."aye aye aye I'm out of air...puff puff puff...what do I do...puff puff puff..." it should be more like..."dang it...how'd I do that...dude I need your hose...ah...that's good...let's go." Been there ...done that...consumption rates didn't change.

I don't know if I agree with this. You never know when even the most level headed person is going to panic and you should plan for that. The event that you're planning for isn't an OOA which goes just like it does in drills. The event that you're planning for is when your buddy suddenly comes face-to-face with their mortality and gets a good dose of terror in them.

I don't think you can claim that you won't dive with a buddy like that, because I think that anyone has the potential to react that way if its the wrong day.

My ascent time is less than what you figured, too. More like 4 minutes...including all stops and an ascent rate of 30. This of course might be different depending on the dive.

How do you figure 3 mins of stops and an ascent rate of 30 from 100 fsw gives you 4 minutes?

 

[FreeFloat]

Most of them don't have many dives logged and on one occasion the ink hadn't dried on his c-card. What would be the best thing to do with a diver like this? Tell them to take DIR-F and come back when they're squared away or make a carefully planned and non-taxing dive with them during which I have the opportunity to pass on what I consider to be good basic practices to an eager diver and help them from developing bad habits?

I'm with him. I've dived with less experienced buddies. I typically keep my mouth shut - those who know me will recognize what an effort that requires! - and just enjoy the dive. If they have questions about things I do or gear I wear I'll try to answer them - but I'm certainly no instructor nor do I want to come across as preachy or egotist. Although, I do make a point of reviewing "this is how I share my air" with them just in case.

 

[GreenDiverDown]

The first time I ever figured out my average SAC rate for an entire dive (around dive #6 or so), I had around 1.1 cu ft / min over the entire dive. That was just a newbie diver and stressed out a bit by the ****ty viz -- that was without thinking I was going to die.



I don't know if I agree with this. You never know when even the most level headed person is going to panic and you should plan for that. The event that you're planning for isn't an OOA which goes just like it does in drills. The event that you're planning for is when your buddy suddenly comes face-to-face with their mortality and gets a good dose of terror in them.

I don't think you can claim that you won't dive with a buddy like that, because I think that anyone has the potential to react that way if its the wrong day.



How do you figure 3 mins of stops and an ascent rate of 30 from 100 fsw gives you 4 minutes?

You make a good point about panic. Good training and experience go a long way to prevent it but certainly isn't a guaranty. I'm guessin' that even DIR divers could panic.

But lot's of things besides OOA can cause panic...and where does one come up with the figure of 1cuft for a panicked diver's RMV.

I don't think that this is meant to represent a panic situation.

You gotta draw a line somewhere and I'm not sure just how one can plan for the air consumption of a panicked diver. That number - if realistic - might be astronomical. I don't calculate for panic. Sorry. Maybe I'm wrong.

Oh...you are quite right...I meant 4 min ascent PLUS 3 min deco which totals 7 minutes total. My rock bottomm figure that I listed earlier is calculated with that number. Oops! Nice catch. Thanks.

 

[lamont]

Back on topic...

I am looking for some help here. I am trying to understand the logic behind the long primary for "normal" open water diving.

All I've got experience with is 'normal' open water diving. I don't care about the benefits of the long hose in restrictions, but I can offer some reasons why I like the long hose for OWD based on my own experience.

#1: your backup is always right there

If you get your reg kicked out of your mouth, its very easy to go to your backup. I actually had this happen to me before I had a lot of S-drill training with the long hose and going to the backup was instinctual, easy and stress-free. It gave me all the time in the world (well, or at least until my tank went dry) to chase after the other reg. This was a big selling point to me, since one of the things which really stressed me out in my OW class was doing reg recoveries. I think that with experience this probably becomes less of a selling point (I'd probably be way more comfortable now with 'short hose' reg recoveries than I was) but its still nice for the completely stress-free approach.

#2: the reg you donate is always right there

There's no fussing around wondering where the octo is. You're not ever going to catch either of your regs on something, have it pull out of its holder and have it wind up dangling behind you. For the reg in your mouth you're going to notice an immediate breathing problem if it snags and gets pulled out -- and you backup is unlikely to snag, and if it does, you'll notice it choking you and you'll fix it. The result is that you always know at all times exactly where both of your regs are.

#3: the long hose gives you room to solve buoyancy issues

I've actually been a real OOA diver at the end of a long hose (someone did the "turn off plus 1/4 turn on" trick to me and my air quit at 60 fsw -- before I knew about valve drills). I started to lose control of my buoyancy, but it gets real obvious when you're a couple feet above your air source and moving away from it that you ought to fix that problem -- while giving you enough slack so that you're not going to either jerk the donor up or jerk the reg out of your mouth while you get it under control.
It also helps the OOA donor since they're not getting pulled around by you and they can remain calm -- and in a rescue with someone who is paniced and lost their buoyancy control upwards I imaging it gives the rescuer the option of yanking their long hose back to prevent two casulaties and letting the OOA diver blow and go to the surface...

Overall, I think the long hose is the only way to go for diving, tech or OW...

 

[cornfed]

If they have questions about things I do or gear I wear I'll try to answer them - but I'm certainly no instructor nor do I want to come across as preachy or egotist.

I've found most new divers are eager to learn so you don't have to be preachy. They start asking questions about my "weird" gear and it's all down hill from there.

 

[novadiver]

I've found most new divers are eager to learn so you don't have to be preachy. They start asking questions about my "weird" gear and it's all down hill from there.

I would ask questions about the "weird" hair and the funny look in the eyes first

 

[Xanthro]

"You're not ever going to catch either of your regs on something, have it pull out of its holder and have it wind up dangling behind you."

Very good point. When I did my OW OOA excerise, my instructor's Octo had fallen out of its holder, and was stuck in his BCD covered by his pocket. He literally couldn't find it, as the hose was pinned right next to his body, and the reg itself was below a pouch. After about 30-40 seconds and me noticing he is getting a bit concerned, I pulled the octo out and took it myself. Note, I saw the octo had fallen out before we started the excerise, but didn't notice it was stuck under his belt. While 30 seconds may seem a long time, I can easily not breath for more than a minute, and I had both my reg and octo right there if I really needed to breath, so I don't count this as any real OOA experience in waiting for air. Huge difference when you know you have air 2 seconds away. Just pointing the experience out as something that would never happen with a long hose donated setup.

Xanthro

 

[FreeFloat]

I've found most new divers are eager to learn so you don't have to be preachy. They start asking questions about my "weird" gear and it's all down hill from there.

That's what I have found happens. But then again people have approached me after a dive saying that they had been 'warned' by friends (prior to diving with me) to expect a lecture akin to the "your gear will kill you" speech and that they were pleasantly surprised when I didn't instantly start picking apart their gear. I guess sometimes word gets around that I'm "one of THOSE type of divers" - whatever that means - when they see my gear............. (sigh)

I prefer to just plain dive and if they like what they see (gear or dive style) they'll ask. If they don't there's no reason for me to be rubbing stuff in their face.

 

[cornfed]

I prefer to just plain dive and if they like what they see (gear or dive style) they'll ask. If they don't there's no reason for me to be rubbing stuff in their face.

I completely agree.