Fundies kicked my a$$

[scubadobadoo]

... And, the Kool-aid was ready to drink.

This is the only time I find a red mustache sexy on a woman.

 

[Mossman]

Before you go (from a basic forum where bashing/flaming as you have done is against the rules btw) maybe you could offer up one small thing that you do like about a Fundies class? I am not looking to pick at you either, I am only looking to extract something positive from what you have offered here on this topic. I understand you will never take the class, but maybe there is something good even in just the concept of a Fundies class that you could pass on to new divers reading this thread? Surely life isn't so black and white?

To truly hate something you have to know it first IMHO. At this point all I get from you is that you hate Fundies and "the cult mentality that comes with it" with an almost religious and cult like hatred yourself. That's kinda ironic and not very friendly.

Btw, the people here on this thread may be religious about diving, some may even wear the same rig, but at no point did they ever act as if they all wear the same white sneakers and sit around all day waiting for a comet to pass by and pick them up.

So how about it? Can you play Devil's advocate with yourself and offer something genuinely good about the class without being cynical, comical or back handed in any way?

Sorry, I didn't mean to flame/bash anyone here, just bashing the DIR philosophy which I do indeed liken to a cult. Surely it's OK to bash a certain system of diving here, just like some bash solo diving or PADI? Besides, I was just acting as an anti-cheerleader, devil's advocate, deprogrammer, what have you. Maybe they no longer wait for the comet, but there was a recent time when DIR was synonymous with the Halcyon brand and all DIR divers did indeed dress exactly alike.

And no, I don't see much to like about "Fundies". Those interested in tech or cave diving can take the appropriate courses. I see it as a lucrative and successful marketing tool, that's all. Of course I see a lot of that all over the dive industry. DIR just goes about it differently.

 

[tufb98]

Congrats on the pass.

Personally, I do not have an "affiliation." But, I think anytime we learn something new that is an accomplishment to be celebrated (regardless of how or from whom we learn).

On a personal note, I am a newb and hearing how tough the course is certainly interests me. I am always up for a challenge and pushing myself to better performance.

Congrats again!!!

 

[redacted]

It is too bad someone does not separate the DIR skills standards from the DIR philosophy and offer just the training in the skills. Is there some reason solo divers should not practice the DIR skills standards? Can't you have the DIR level skills when it come to buoyancy and positioning control without having a great buddy attached to your side by some invisible bond (with an extra D-ring if you choose)?

I might even pay someone to teach me those buoyancy and control skills but there is no way I'm paying someone to teach me that I can't dive solo with split fins and and Air2 if that is what I want. Heck, I'd even bring my old Jet fins in case the instructor would like to demonstrate to me how much better they are than my homemade split fins which I prefer.

Sorry, I didn't mean to flame/bash anyone here, just bashing the DIR philosophy which I do indeed liken to a cult. Surely it's OK to bash a certain system of diving here, just like some bash solo diving or PADI? Besides, I was just acting as an anti-cheerleader, devil's advocate, deprogrammer, what have you. Maybe they no longer wait for the comet, but there was a recent time when DIR was synonymous with the Halcyon brand and all DIR divers did indeed dress exactly alike.

And no, I don't see much to like about "Fundies". Those interested in tech or cave diving can take the appropriate courses. I see it as a lucrative and successful marketing tool, that's all. Of course I see a lot of that all over the dive industry. DIR just goes about it differently.

 

[gsk3]

It is too bad someone does not separate the DIR skills standards from the DIR philosophy and offer just the training in the skills. Is there some reason solo divers should not practice the DIR skills standards? Can't you have the DIR level skills when it come to buoyancy and positioning control without having a great buddy attached to your side by some invisible bond (with an extra D-ring if you choose)?

You certainly can separate some of the skills or equipment configuration. That's why a lot (most?) of Fundies-takers go on to never take another GUE or UTD course, instead applying the skills to other tech diving. And it's why Fundies is often recommended for people considering tech training, even if they intend to take a course taught under a very different philosophy.

Seriously, there's no hard-sell. Just a lot of explanation of why it works, and how everything fits together (and it *does* fit together--many of the pieces just don't make as much sense in isolation).

 

[scubadobadoo]

Sorry, I didn't mean to flame/bash anyone here, just bashing the DIR philosophy which I do indeed liken to a cult. Surely it's OK to bash a certain system of diving here, just like some bash solo diving or PADI? Besides, I was just acting as an anti-cheerleader, devil's advocate, deprogrammer, what have you. Maybe they no longer wait for the comet, but there was a recent time when DIR was synonymous with the Halcyon brand and all DIR divers did indeed dress exactly alike.

And no, I don't see much to like about "Fundies". Those interested in tech or cave diving can take the appropriate courses. I see it as a lucrative and successful marketing tool, that's all. Of course I see a lot of that all over the dive industry. DIR just goes about it differently.

I hear ya, I would still go diving with ya and I realize that you were just playing devil's advocate. Things always read way more intense than they are frequently intended here on SB.

Regarding bashing ANYTHING, the answer is no. Not in THIS forum. Others, sure. In THIS forum I prefer and hope others prefer to find some positive way to discuss without bashing, blaming, or flaming.

As an agnostic, I am very aware when things get "annoyingly cult like in nature" but that wasn't happening in this thread. Others, yes.

So as a dive educator yourself there isn't ONE SINGLE thing that you like about the Fundies course (forget the philosophy behind it) and think could be a benefit to new divers? Not even one small thing? When I teach, I make it a point to at least find one positive thing about a subject even if I hate it otherwise I think I risk seeming too close minded or rigid in my own beliefs to teach something effectively and from all view points.

Again, I am not trying to pick at you and thank you for your thoughtful response above.

 

[DennisH]

Too bad, this thread started out as a celebration of a fellow diver's accomplishment. One troll was allowed to derail it into the standard "I don't know anything about DIR but I know I don't like it" thread. Not surprisingly, he failed to distinguish between DIR, GUE and UTD because when your only goal is to start an argument, why bother with facts, truth, or nuance?

Ironically, his main concern was painting GUE divers as part of an unthinking religious cult. To do so, he managed to make sure he had no actual information about his topic that might actually ground his strongly held views. If that isn't the very definition of someone holding fundamentalist rigid beliefs, I don't know what is. So here we are, another silly anti-DIR thread, when instead we could all just be saying to the OP "congratulations...I'm glad you felt challenged, feel like you learned a lot, and kudos for working to improve your diving -- well done!".

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Surely it's OK to bash a certain system of diving here, just like some bash solo diving or PADI? Besides, I was just acting as an anti-cheerleader, devil's advocate, deprogrammer, what have you. Maybe they no longer wait for the comet, but there was a recent time when DIR was synonymous with the Halcyon brand and all DIR divers did indeed dress exactly alike.

Actually, in this forum it's not OK ... in case you missed it, this message is displayed at the top of the forum ...

Please note: This forum has special rules. This forum is intended to be a very friendly, "flame free zone" where divers of any skill level may ask questions about basic scuba topics without fear of being accosted. Please show respect and courtesy at all times. Remember that the inquirer is looking for answers that they can understand. This is a learning zone and consequently, any off-topic or overly harsh responses will be removed.

So, besides being a troll, you're violating the rules for posting here ... IJS ...

And no, I don't see much to like about "Fundies". Those interested in tech or cave diving can take the appropriate courses. I see it as a lucrative and successful marketing tool, that's all. Of course I see a lot of that all over the dive industry. DIR just goes about it differently.

You don't have to like Fundies ... that's quite OK. You don't have to participate in this discussion either, since by your own admission you're only here to disparage the topic under discussion.

You can see it however you like. My only objection is that you don't give any real information to describe why you don't like it except some vague emotional response, a bit of stereotypical nonsense, and some blather about "cults". Frankly, your comments leave me with the impression that you don't know what you're talking about ... and that it is you who, in fact, has been pounding down the kool-aid.

For example - tech or cave classes aren't an alternative to Fundies. Those classes are not intended to teach you the skills you will be introduced to in a Fundamentals class at all ... you're expected to already have those skills by the time you go into those classes.

No serious tech or cave instructor is going to accept you into a class unless you already have reasonably good buoyancy skills, good awareness, the ability to move around without silting the place out, a functioning knowledge of how to dive with another diver, and some ability to perform while task-loaded. These are the very skills that you will be introduced to in Fundamentals. Show up for a tech or cave class without those skills and you're going to be seriously disappointed in the outcome. I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who took virtually ALL of my tech and cave training through NAUI and NSS-CDS ... none of my instructors would've even allowed me to waste their time by continuing the class, much less completing it, if I showed up without the skills that a Fundamentals class will cover.

That's not to say that you need to learn those skills in Fundamentals ... but it IS to say that DIR isn't the only venue that requires them.

This whole business about "cult" is the product of some insecure LDS owners who feel threatened by people taking classes from an organization they perceive as a "competitor". And in some cases they should feel threatened ... because once someone sees what a quality diving class is like, they realize what a load of crap they were sold by many of those LDS owners.

So in that respect you're right ... it's all about marketing ... but not in the manner that you perceive it to be.

I don't, frankly, care whether you get your skills through GUE, PADI, NAUI, SEI, Thal's Scripps program, or even by just finding a good mentor and getting underwater often enough to develop them on your own. The key thing is that if you're going to dive, develop your skills to the point where you can make good decisions and conduct a dive without endangering yourself or others. If you're thinking to go tech or cave, Fundamentals is an excellent way to develop the skills you'll need in order to pursue those goals.

It's not the only way to learn those skills ... but it is one very good way. And those who choose to take the class should be encouraged and applauded for putting in the effort to better themselves.

I really do have to question the motives of anyone who thinks otherwise ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Mossman]

Actually, in this forum it's not OK ... in case you missed it, this message is displayed at the top of the forum ...

Please note: This forum has special rules. This forum is intended to be a very friendly, "flame free zone" where divers of any skill level may ask questions about basic scuba topics without fear of being accosted. Please show respect and courtesy at all times. Remember that the inquirer is looking for answers that they can understand. This is a learning zone and consequently, any off-topic or overly harsh responses will be removed.

So, besides being a troll, you're violating the rules for posting here ... IJS ...

A flame is a personal attack. Bashing DIR is not a personal attack. The rules don't say no bashing, they say no flaming. My responses were not overly harsh, though maybe they weren't exactly "very friendly". If you want an example of a flame, see whoever called me a "troll" and hurt my widdle feelings.

BTW, the "rules" you quoted referred to this forum as a place for asking questions. What question, exactly, was the OP asking?

You don't have to like Fundies ... that's quite OK. You don't have to participate in this discussion either, since by your own admission you're only here to disparage the topic under discussion.
You can see it however you like. My only objection is that you don't give any real information to describe why you don't like it except some vague emotional response, a bit of stereotypical nonsense, and some blather about "cults". Frankly, your comments leave me with the impression that you don't know what you're talking about ... and that it is you who, in fact, has been pounding down the kool-aid.

My reasons as to why I don't like it have been made a lot clearer than the reasons why people do like it.

For example - tech or cave classes aren't an alternative to Fundies. Those classes are not intended to teach you the skills you will be introduced to in a Fundamentals class at all ... you're expected to already have those skills by the time you go into those classes.

No serious tech or cave instructor is going to accept you into a class unless you already have reasonably good buoyancy skills, good awareness, the ability to move around without silting the place out, a functioning knowledge of how to dive with another diver, and some ability to perform while task-loaded. These are the very skills that you will be introduced to in Fundamentals. Show up for a tech or cave class without those skills and you're going to be seriously disappointed in the outcome. I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who took virtually ALL of my tech and cave training through NAUI and NSS-CDS ... none of my instructors would've even allowed me to waste their time by continuing the class, much less completing it, if I showed up without the skills that a Fundamentals class will cover.

Did you take a $500 class, beyond initial open water training, in order to acquire these special pre-Tech skills?

That's not to say that you need to learn those skills in Fundamentals ... but it IS to say that DIR isn't the only venue that requires them.

This whole business about "cult" is the product of some insecure LDS owners who feel threatened by people taking classes from an organization they perceive as a "competitor". And in some cases they should feel threatened ... because once someone sees what a quality diving class is like, they realize what a load of crap they were sold by many of those LDS owners.

So in that respect you're right ... it's all about marketing ... but not in the manner that you perceive it to be.

If the link between DIR, GUE, and Halcyon weren't so tangible, I'd agree with you. A quality open water training program is a great idea.

 

[PfcAJ]

sigh.... there is so much you dont understand about gue/dir, yet you are so sure of what you think you know.