Fresh ammo for the bp/wings debate

[leadweight]

GearHead once bubbled...
So, if for no other reason than for divers like myself who otherwise wouldn't have known better, I think it's perfectly legitimate and desirable for BP/Wing to be introduced as a viable option for new board members asking for opinions on BC's. If you disagree with that, I'd sincerely like to know why.

GearHead

Its a matter of degree. There are enough threads dealing with backplate selection, wing selection, set up and such that anyone who has a pair of eyes is going to find out about BP's without having his thread on the Pro QD hijacked. If he has a brain he can ask about BP's. I knew what they were before years I ever got here because I had seen the word Hogartharian somewhere and decided to do a search on it.

I went through this issue with Pug and he ruled that it is ok to "spread the word" unless the starter of the thread said he did not want to hear about BP's, which happens around here now and then. So, it does not matter what I think on that point as the battle has been fought and lost, so to say.

BP's are not bad per se. As you point out, for certain applications they are tops. For the warm water diving that I do, not perfect, but completely usable. And for a drysuit diver who goes South occasionally, it isn't worth buying a separate rig for that once a year trip.

 

[cadet diver]

I sure wish that I had all the free time that some of you guys seem to have to write so much. Do you write during or after work?

 

[SeaJay]

I'd like to apologize to SeaJay for this getting so off topic.

No biggie.

I thought about mentioning it, but then I'd just be a hypocrite. I think we're on something like our third topic of conversation. Maybe fourth. But then, I posted that video, which was pretty unrelated too, except for the fact that it was about message boards in general.

I appreciate the apology... But it's not necessary. I think it keeps the thread interesting.

And this has been one interesting thread!

I still can't find Scoob's "bad post."

I wear thin tropical gloves in tropical water. My justification is barnacles, digging in the sand for shark's teeth, the muck and junk on the rope and on pilings, and barnacles all over the place on underwater structures such as wrecks and pilings.

I don't touch coral in any way, shape or form, and I encourage others to practice the same.

Walter: In response to..

IMHO, better. OTOH, you are still calling a back pack a BC. It is not a BC.

Yes, I know that... If it doesn't have an air cell in it, then how can it be called a "BC?" You're right.

Still, I don't want to spend the time and effort explaining that, when I can get my point across without going into it. Divers who wear a simple harness wear in in place of a BC, and it still functions the same way in terms of connecting you to your gear. Thus, I believe it's shorter and sweeter to say "BC" in quotes and then mention in the next sentence that some divers dive their "BC" without a cell attached at all. I believe that this gives people a good mental image of it.

You still assume all non wing BC's have padding. They don't.

I don't see where I assumed that... Many of the non-wing BC's that I've dived did not have padding in them. Sure, I did not got into the distinction between them... Just as I didn't go into the distinction of "the three types of jacket-style BC's" as someone else mentioned earlier. This article was not written to cover every aspect of BC's... But instead to give the newbie a basic introduction to the basic types of BC. Sure, I mention that one of the reasons why I like a bp/wing is BECAUSE of the fact that there's a lack of padding (along with about a dozen other reasons), and I never do distinguish the fact that some other non-wing BC's can have the same feature (although not prevalent in "upper line" BC's). However, that's not the main point of the article, and I felt that it was too in-depth and off-topic to talk about.

You also assume wings are necessary for an easy switch between twins and a single tank. They aren't.

The term "easy" is subjective. But I understand your point. I mentioned that "bp/wings provide a quick, easy way of switching from single tanks to double tanks," but that was all I said. I did not mention at all anything about non-bp/wing BC's and doubles... Again, I felt that wasn't the point that I was trying to make. Instead I went into the stability of a bp/wing and it's benefits, no matter whether you're wearing a single or doubles.

 

[WreckWriter]

I still can't find Scoob's "bad post."

You're missing the point SeaJay. There was not a single "bad post". What there was was a long series of posts where this guy started out one way (started DIR as I recall), changed 180 degrees and talked it down, changed back again, and back again!

It was comical actually to watch him regress but it got really annoying because people spent a lot of time trying to help this guy out only to have it thrown back in their faces the next day or next week because he had suddenly seen the "light" (or was it the other light??)

The bottom line is that he has absolutley no experience and everything he says that makes him appear that he does is just BS parroted from someone else. When we met him he wasn't certified yet, it hasn't been THAT long ago!

He hasn't been banned, either previously or now, he's just embarrassed and won't admit up to it. If he would simply admit to his mistakes and be who he really is, noone would have these problems with him.

WW

 

[Walter]

Calling a back pack a BC even in quotation marks destroys your credibility.

"Divers who wear a simple harness wear in in place of a BC, and it still functions the same way in terms of connecting you to your gear."

You are placing the cart before the horse. Back packs operated alone, then worked with a BC and were eventually incorporated into BC's. When diving with a back pack and a horse collar, you have two separate items - a BC and a back pack.

When you say:

"It is argued by those divers who are opposed to bp/wings that they will "miss" the padding of a jacket-style or back-inflate style BC."

You are, in effect, saying "jacket-style and back-inflate style BC's all have padding." This is misleading, when I know your intention is to inform, not to mislead.


When you say:

"There are other advantages as well...........A bp/wing also allows for a very easy switch between single tanks and double tanks."

You are making a comparison, implying this is a manner in which wings are superior. It's not true.

 

[GearHead]

leadweight once bubbled...


Its a matter of degree. There are enough threads dealing with backplate selection, wing selection, set up and such that anyone who has a pair of eyes is going to find out about BP's without having his thread on the Pro QD hijacked. If he has a brain he can ask about BP's. I knew what they were before years I ever got here because I had seen the word Hogartharian somewhere and decided to do a search on it.

You're either missing the point or choosing to ignore it. To give you the benefit of the doubt, I'll assume that you've got so many dives under your belt that you can't remember what it was like to be new to diving or new to this board.

In my estimation, Mr. Joe Newbie Diver, who is new to diving and new to this board, is excited about spending money on the sport, but doesn't know which direction to go. He doesn't know whether to buy a reg, or BC first and only knows the brands his shop told him about. In other words, he's just plain ignorant to the fact that BP's are even out there. If he describes his diving aspirations as consistent with what I believe BP's are good for, I'd be doing him a disservice if I didn't bring them up whether he specifically asked or not.

It doesn't matter whether "he has a brain", he can't very well ask about BP's if he's never heard of them, can he? Maybe Joe Board Newbie doesn't know where to look for the tons of threads that are out there already? Maybe he doesn't even know how to use the Search function (very likely).

I suggest you accept the fact that there are configurations out there other than yours, and that people are going to talk about them here. In other words:
http://store2.yimg.com/I/opg_1732_536089

 

[Raven C]

leadweight once bubbled...
You can use anything for a puddle jump. I am not alone in saying that the BP & Wings is a poor choice for the casual diver who takes one or two warm water trips per year. ]

Leadweight, I am curious...how many BCs have you tried? How many times have you tried a BP&W? Ever? Honestly?

[Love those stiff shoulder straps.]

You really would, I think. It's not like they hurt. They fit comfortably and out of the way.


[...Joe Casual who will never dive doubles, let alone see the inside of an underwater cave. He wants to take his BC out of the bag and use it without any trouble.]

I have dived brand new off the shelf BCs that don't adjust right. Yeah you can get in the water with them and even dive. But the experience sucks.

[It never fails to amaze me that every diver who buys a BP feels compelled to convert everyone else to their way of doing things.]

I feel it is more about educating people on the gear we use and why. If you use one particular piece of gear that works really well for you then you stick with it. You also tend to tell others why you like it so much. Let's take my regulator and mouthpiece for instance. I prefer a small reg and micro mouthpiece. Others would not. But from my experience, I know what is best for me. There may be others with the same issues and my decision may help them find the right gear from them too. It just may happen that they choose the same reg and mouthpiece for the same reasons.

And, the idea of a BP&W fit is that you customize it to fit you and you don't fuss with it or just give up and dive. You don't have to worry that the thing really is too big, or the straps loosen up on their own or won't tighten down enough. You can dive with it anywhere and you don't have to dive doubles with a BP&W. As a matter of fact, you set it up to dive doubles.

Don't forget that it is all about what gear is best for you. Some people don't really care. Others take the time to get what is the best gear for them.

Why is it necessary to be so negative about other's choices?

Another thing about people learning to dive in jackets...yes, people learn to dive in jackets, people learn from the books not to touch or silt but they are taught in OP class to get on you knees. Why? Why wouldn't a student be taught correctly first? Stay horizontal. Why are you taught to be virticle in the water when that is not the proper way? There are many things that are taught to beginning divers that are not best practices or not even right. BCs are issues of best practices. Gear in general is an issue of best practices.


SeaJay, if you are changing your article to be more informative/factual and more helpful to others, then go for it. If you are changing it so satisfy someone who has nothing better to do than flame you stop and rethink. I personally think you want to present the best information possible and your passion gives way to you opinions. Kudos to you for your writing skills. But don't conform just because. And, don't sacrafice the integrity of your writing and the content of your article for nothing. : ) Don't forget many articles are written only from experience. Yours is based on experience and facts. The embelishment is your opinion which is founded on your experience. Keep diving and searching for answers. Then, share them.

 

[cyklon_300]

less stiff and more comfortable by soaking them in fabric softener...plus, it gives your rig a nice smell, too.

Another tip, when you get home with the coral you removed from the reef, put it in a sturdy laundry bag and bash the crap out of it with a hammer.

When you have it sufficiently pulverized, you can use it in your aquarium...much cheaper than the overpriced gravel they sell in the pet stores.

 

[Uncle Pug]

about your article and Walter's comments. If you want your article to be factually correct listen to Walter... he is trying to help you and he is correct.

 

[metridium]

leadweight wrote...
You can use anything for a puddle jump. I am not alone in saying that the BP & Wings is a poor choice for the casual diver who takes one or two warm water trips per year.

I wonder if the concept is as theoretical for them as it seems to be with you.

For several years I was a casual diver who took one or two warm water trips per year, and the BP was certainly no "poor choice". It was in fact the best choice I found.

As for ease of use, I adjusted the harness once, and that was it. No professional help needed. I'd simply pull it out of my carryon, connect the plate with the wing and STA in 15 seconds or so, and I was ready to go.

I'm not trying to be offensive, but you really should try a properly fitted BP some time, Leadweight, just so things can be a little less theoretical.