Freediving fins might help

[tracydr]

I call BS to that....we get 3 to 5 mph currents all the time in Palm Beach.....it's not like we don't know currents.....and one thing that is obvious, is that there are MAJOR differences between how divers on charter boats are able to go against currents, or crosswise to them if desired or required. Splits being the most ineffective.

If fit divers could not do a bad day with freedive fins, then normal divers could not do this on a normal day.....If you are talking 8 and 10 mph currents, then how in the he&& does a charter operator justify operating in it?

I have done lots of diving around Fiji, with freedive fins ( even left a pair for the DM when I left)....and they allowed me to do anything I wanted to, at any time, at any site.

This is a nonsense of the dive industry, thinking that all fins are equal, and that divers don't NEED to be able to have REAL Propulsion if conditions dictate it.....While fitness does play here....put a "fit diver" in splits, in a huge Palm Beach current, ask him to go sideways or up current, and he is a leaf in the wind...put freedive fins on the same fit diver...or for that matter, Extra Force Fins, and the fit diver will blast up current with no problem, or across current.
We see this all the time...fortunately in Palm Beach we have great drift boat operators, so that all these people with split fins are not going to ever need to fight a current--the boat will get them wherever they are taken to.

When I went to Africa we had two divers with force fins. The dive shop owner, who was about 70 yo but had >10,000 dives and another very experienced diver. They got thrown around by crazy currents just as much as I did, with traditional paddle fins.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Steve, Thanks for raising this question!!! I would have hoped Bob would have.....but in any event, there is an effect we see that occurs with many models of split fins, when a group of divers decides to cross over the crown on reefs like Breakers or the Boynton Reefs, from the East side fingers, to the West side inshore ledge....This is not a big problem on mild current days, but becomes a big issue on days when the current is really blowing.
You will get a dive leader, heading on a compass heading across the reef crown.....now maybe if they just went 45 degrees WITH the current, so that they would cross a mile further down the reef than really desired--maybe this would allow the splits to work ok....but instead, many divers like to avoid MISSING out on some of the big ledge area that is straight across ( or not too far down current) of where they make the decision to cross from the 90 foot deep fingers, over to the much shallower inshore ledge side. So what I think happens...and what should be studied/ measured/ discussed, is that the divers attempt to hold their position over the bottom so that they stop being blown further down current--or try to limit how much they are blown down current by using a small angle so they don't fight quite so much....and when this happens, the divers with standard paddle fins, including jets, hollis, quattros, all the normal fins without splits---these divers pretty much hold their visual line they are focusing on, and they move across the reef crown to the West, and get to the opposite side about where they were hoping to.....BUT...many of the split fin divers end up having the side push of the current destabilize the normal propulsive action of the splits--whatever thrashing around the splits normally do in still water, where this allows the splits to generate forward power, with a stiff sideways vector of current upsetting the flow dynamics of how the splits move in reaction to the diver's kicks....the efficiency or ability to propel in the desired direction ( following the group or buddy) drops off alarmingly. I have witnessed this many times, and I and other divers with paddle fins or Freedive fins, have then had to step in and grab the tank valve or hand of the split fin wearer, and drag them along the path the group is following...once they get to the far side, and resume the swimming with the vector path of water, the splits work again, and the swimming of the split fin divers keeps them easily in the group with the swimming of the paddle fin wearing divers....

This is probably something I should document on Breakers reef with a group, the next time the current is flying, and we have some advanced divers with split fins AND with jets or equivalent.


This entire issue is relevant to a group of divers in a current, that came up to see no boat...and then became nervous about how to hit land that was sideways to them....about what direction they should swim towards....

Perhaps ... but only if they were wearing split fins, which you're assuming they were based on zero information ... and only if they had sufficient skills to use a more powerful pair of fins to their potential, which you are also assuming they did based on zero information.

You're assuming that I'm here to defend split fins, Dan ... which like virtually every other assumption you've made in this thread is based on zero information.

You're like every other zealot I've ever met ... so buried in the righteousness of your own convictions that you're completely deaf to what everyone else is saying ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[tracydr]

Your logic is so bad its ugly. It doesnt matter what they were using. What matters is that split fins dont have all the thrust you may need in an emergency. Its a fact. You mention hours at sea. What if the right gear choice could have prevented someone being swept away in the 1st place? No need for hours at sea thanks to the correct gear. Whats so complicated about that concept?

What boat were they supposed to swim to, since they only saw boats in the distance, so far away that the boats didn't even see their lights? And, how do freedive fins help in whirlpool currents like they described? Or climbing rocks and cliffs?
What they needed was PLBs.

 

[danvolker]

Perhaps ... but only if they were wearing split fins, which you're assuming they were based on zero information ... and only if they had sufficient skills to use a more powerful pair of fins to their potential, which you are also assuming they did based on zero information.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)

{snip other nonsense}
Again Bob, you keep forgetting what this forum is for...it is for preventing accidents in the future, by looking at past accidents.
You FAIL to realize that there are huge numbers of split fin wearing divers.....all by itself, this group needs to get some data on what they ought to do if faced with a NEED to strike out perpendicular to a BIG current....can they go straight sideways, can they go 45 degrees...maybe they need to go 15 degrees...at what point will the splits be effective in crossing a major current.

Again Bob, you fail to recognize that by the industry telling divers any fin is fine, and that there is no need to learn optimal kicking techniques, that future accidents can occur from these failings.....I think the instructor DOES have a responsibility to discuss the pros and cons of certain major different gear choices....and of course the value of this discussion will vary widely with the instructor....but so does the general instruction quality and final product of certified divers....

And from some of the other posters, indicating that in this part of the world, there are many divers that can't even swim ( another indication the non-swimmers probably use split fins--as these require no skills to propel yourself with)..maybe an instructor of some repute, should push for certs as Resort Diver, and certs as Self Sufficient Diver to be included as a degree of OW proficiency.....Since we know in a large part of the world, credit cards mean every person can be a diver, irrespective of how well they learn diving.


As to your George Irvine comments...versus all the wonderful legacies you will leave.....and in fairness, there are some good marks you have left.....

• Without George, there would be no DIR.....which is now a worldwide sized body of divers that get more adventures, more fun, and do it more safely than they would have been able to without DIR.
• Without George, there never would have been the push by WKPP for the backplate and Wing --which Carmichael was asked to pursue and did so with the Halcyon line from his Brownies company...and which is now copied by Scubapro, and a dozen others that said they wanted no part of the bp/wing prior to Halcyon....I have a great historical account of the first DEMA show where Halcyon first was unveiled, to the horror of the big Dive MFG's....which I could certainly share again....Without George, this would have never happened, and the big yearly push by the BCD manufacturers, would still be the hot new color, the cool shaped new monster pockets, the cool lettering on the side....all the bells and whistles with no useful new improvements...the world we were in prior to Halcyon....and prior to George.
• Without George, an awful lot of instructors would have been much less stressed and ego damaged. Well OK, many put a lot of weight on this one
• Without George, there would not have been the huge world famous 3 mile run into Wakulla with JJ, at av depth of 280 feet 3miles in...and using the revolutionary RB80 rebreather ( which I had a hand in getting him to use via my friend Jack Kellon)...meaning this record also was significant in getting rebreathers to gain traction among the tech and cave worlds....

Bob, there was alot of good that George did. Sure his theatrics on the Internet were outrageous at times.....But this was a time on the Internet, where the Flame war was fun for the spectators, and everyone but a small number of targets, new that the flames were about entertainment value...exactly like in Pro Wrestling....it got the big ratings, and a big message succeeded in getting out.....Anyway, the bell rung...the cow's out of the barn....it all happened. The world is better for what George accomplished. Some--maybe you Bob, will not agree...but many thousands of divers will. If I can have a hand in helping many thousands of divers, I am good with this, even if I upset a few dozen in the process...like you Bob...sorry, I guess it just had to happen for the greater good

 

[tracydr]

I wasn't objecting to the logic ... I was objecting to where you and Dan chose to take up the argument.

How do you know any of these women were wearing split fins? You just don't see them all that much in Indonesia, as they're generally pretty expensive. Granted these were Japanese tourists, but you still have no idea whether they were wearing split fins or not ... or whether these women brought their own equipment from Japan or were renting something in Bali.

It helps, in the context of a discussion, to base it on factual information. And in this case, you're lacking that. And if your profile's accurate, you're lacking any practical experience in either the fins or the location.

But now that this discussion's in the appropriate forum, you're welcome to push freediving fins for every scuba diver on the planet, in every possible application, if that's what floats your boat ... this is the place for that discussion to take place.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

When I had fifty dives I knew everything about diving and I was relatively immortal. When I hit 200 dives, I realized I knew very little and that I was very mortal.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

When I had fifty dives I knew everything about diving and I was relatively immortal. When I hit 200 dives, I realized I knew very little and that I was very mortal.

That's a cycle most of us go through ... I certainly did.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[danvolker]

What boat were they supposed to swim to, since they only saw boats in the distance, so far away that the boats didn't even see their lights? And, how do freedive fins help in whirlpool currents like they described? Or climbing rocks and cliffs?
What they needed was PLBs.

This is not really about what these divers did right or wrong...it is about what happens if you are in a place with extreme conditions going on, and there is no boat....

So the questions are :

1. How do you decide what object to swim for...and what vector to use to reach it...
2. How will you use the gear you have to attain the objective....If there is a short area that could be crossed quickly, that could give you massive assistance in gaining safety-but crossing quickly means getting to the bottom and going hand over hand with the air left among your group...this is a theoretical strategy and problem solving issue divers need to deal with....or, if they all just go to maximum crusing pace at 10 feet below the surface, with the remaining air they have left, and follow a compass heading (OR LEAD DIVER DOES) until they have reached the safe point....knowing that this is far more efficient for speed and distance than swimming on the surface would be....and ten feet from the surface does not use up much air compared to at 60 feet....If the run is not long to safety, and missing the run target could mean being swept out to sea for a hundred miles, and their are at zero air left.....do they dump the high drag BC and tanks, and dump the weight belt, and go for max speed on the surface to try to save themselves from days at sea, with almost no hope of being seen for days?
3. If they have split fins, then they will need to know the vector that will work for them...Even a freedive fin diver, needs to have a sense of what is the optimal crossing path to the target. You can't go with unthinking brute force, when your life is at stake.

I don't see how discussion of gear and strategies for future trips--in adventure areas like this....is not something that everyone would see value in!!!?????

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Again Bob, you keep forgetting what this forum is for...it is for preventing accidents in the future, by looking at past accidents.

Actually it's not ... we're in the fins-mask-snorkels forum. Your hijack got moved out of the accidents forum because SB staff ... like many of us ... felt it was an inappropriate place for you to have that discussion.

You FAIL to realize that there are huge numbers of split fin wearing divers.....all by itself, this group needs to get some data on what they ought to do if faced with a NEED to strike out perpendicular to a BIG current....can they go straight sideways, can they go 45 degrees...maybe they need to go 15 degrees...at what point will the splits be effective in crossing a major current.

Fine ... so have that discussion. How did you manage to tie it into an accident that happened in a place you've never dived, by people who may or may not have been wearing the fins you allege were the source of the problem?

I don't fail to realize it at all ... I just happen to disagree with your premise that split fins are inherently dangerous. You know what I think is dangerous, Dan? Closed-minded people.

Again Bob, you fail to recognize that by the industry telling divers any fin is fine, and that there is no need to learn optimal kicking techniques, that future accidents can occur from these failings.....

I don't fail to recognize that at all ... and I've explained my position multiple times in this thread already. You're just too closed-minded to have bothered to either read it or comprehend it.

Let me state it again ... since you've already missed it multiple times ... perhaps repetition is needed in your case.

I don't believe that every fin is fine ... not for every environment. I also don't believe ... as you apparently do ... that every fin except the two specific types you prefer are inherently dangerous. I believe that every fin ... like every other piece of gear you can purchase ... has advantages and drawbacks. You have to understand what they are, recognize their benefits and limitations, and make choices based on your specific diving goals and environment. I won't choose anything for my students. I expect them to leave my class equipped with enough knowledge to make their own choices ... because once class is over that's exactly what they'll have to do.

I think the instructor DOES have a responsibility to discuss the pros and cons of certain major different gear choices....and of course the value of this discussion will vary widely with the instructor....but so does the general instruction quality and final product of certified divers....

But what you've been promoting in this thread is that only one type of fin is acceptable ... which exactly contradictory to the statement you just made. How can you discuss the "pros and cons" of a product you believe only has "cons" ... which is exactly what you've been saying about split fins for years now.

And from some of the other posters, indicating that in this part of the world, there are many divers that can't even swim ( another indication the non-swimmers probably use split fins--as these require no skills to propel yourself with)..maybe an instructor of some repute, should push for certs as Resort Diver, and certs as Self Sufficient Diver to be included as a degree of OW proficiency.....Since we know in a large part of the world, credit cards mean every person can be a diver, irrespective of how well they learn diving.

Then maybe you should become an instructor, Dan ... instead of someone who sits on his ass in the comfort of your office criticizing those of us who are actively working to train people to become better divers. Any idiot can sit around and complain about how the world isn't as perfect as he thinks it should be. If you really have the courage of your convictions, get off your ass and do something about it ... rather than blathering on about the shortcomings of those of us who are doing just that.

As to your George Irvine comments...versus all the wonderful legacies you will leave.....and in fairness, there are some good marks you have left.....

• Without George, there would be no DIR.....which is now a worldwide sized body of divers that get more adventures, more fun, and do it more safely than they would have been able to without DIR.

Really? I'm sure JJ would be surprised to hear that..

• Without George, there never would have been the push by WKPP for the backplate and Wing --which Carmichael was asked to pursue and did so with the Halcyon line from his Brownies company...and which is now copied by Scubapro, and a dozen others that said they wanted no part of the bp/wing prior to Halcyon....I have a great historical account of the first DEMA show where Halcyon first was unveiled, to the horror of the big Dive MFG's....which I could certainly share again....Without George, this would have never happened, and the big yearly push by the BCD manufacturers, would still be the hot new color, the cool shaped new monster pockets, the cool lettering on the side....all the bells and whistles with no useful new improvements...the world we were in prior to Halcyon....and prior to George.

Backplate/wing existed long before George, Halcyon and DIR. In fact, most of what DIR became existed before DIR ... what they did was to package a bunch of existing information into a system ... which I give them a lot of credit for. But, as my GUE instructor explained to us in Fundies ... "we didn't invent any of this stuff".

• Without George, an awful lot of instructors would have been much less stressed and ego damaged. Well OK, many put a lot of weight on this one

[sarcasm] ... yeah because before George came along there were no competent divers in the world ... just ask him ...[/sarcasm]

• Without George, there would not have been the huge world famous 3 mile run into Wakulla with JJ, at av depth of 280 feet 3miles in...and using the revolutionary RB80 rebreather ( which I had a hand in getting him to use via my friend Jack Kellon)...meaning this record also was significant in getting rebreathers to gain traction among the tech and cave worlds....

... that nobody can still dive in without being a member of their particular "club". This is, to this day, one of the major sources of the disfunction in the Florida cave diving community that I alluded to earlier.

Bob, there was alot of good that George did. Sure his theatrics on the Internet were outrageous at times.....But this was a time on the Internet, where the Flame war was fun for the spectators, and everyone but a small number of targets, new that the flames were about entertainment value...exactly like in Pro Wrestling....it got the big ratings, and a big message succeeded in getting out.....Anyway, the bell rung...the cow's out of the barn....it all happened. The world is better for what George accomplished. Some--maybe you Bob, will not agree...but many thousands of divers will. If I can have a hand in helping many thousands of divers, I am good with this, even if I upset a few dozen in the process...like you Bob...sorry, I guess it just had to happen for the greater good

George Irvine was to Florida cave diving what Rush Limbaugh is to American politics. Some folks think it's a good thing ... but in the overall scheme of things, both of them practiced a scorched earth policy that did more harm than good to the larger community they served ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[tracydr]

danvolkers law

"Given enough time, in any online scuba discussion - regardless of topic or scope - Dan inevitably makes a comparison to free diving fins"

---------- Post added February 20th, 2014 at 01:48 AM ----------

I've no doubt Dan you have some valid points but unfortunately it gets lost in the noise.

I'm still waiting for him to mention how you're going to die if you wear drysuits. We don't know if these women had drysuits on. 75 degree water there's a fair chance that they might.

 

[Hank49]

Long blades have been primarily designed with full footpockets and warm water divers. I guess mainly because deep free diving for records etc, would be much harder in cold water. More weight, more wetsuit etc etc.

But I would guess JD at Moana or some others would be willing to incorporate an open heel with a long blade. There are many combinations of blade stiffness, as Dan mentioned, and thickness and stiffness of the footpocket tendon.

For scuba, they work fine for me. You can go just as slow as with any fin. Yes, back kicking is probably not possible but as someone mentioned about hiding behind wrecks or ledges in a strong current, I feel the same about back kicking. Just rotate 180 and face the current. Much easier,

But like a knife, or extra light or ....Spare AIr....GASP....did I say that? haha....you normally won't even use...but.when you do need that extra speed of long blades, you probably need it pretty bad. In a pinch, I would ditch my scuba unit and weight belt. Having the extra speed to get across the venturi point of a ripping current will be a real plus. Use your head and get into the back eddies.

I hunt in currents every week. We LOOK for the strong currents because that's where the fish are. Going back to scuba type fins is like going from Duck Feet to bare feet.