Freediving fins might help

[KeithG]

Not to derail this entertaining thread. But I have 1 question: do you want to swim OR do you want to dive?

A very (VERY) large percentage of dives can be conducted on sites where "swimming" is not required. This allows a very large percentage of divers to not need to care about "fins". So most of us are oblivious. And perfectly okay.

My hope is that the very small percentage of divers that need to be aware, are aware and take the appropriate precautions.

I want to dive. So I select sites and conditions were I do not need to swim. So fin choice becomes totally arbitrary in my world.

How many divers live in my world?

 

[danvolker]

I have no intention to.

But since we're making suppositions, why limit it to supposing these women were wearing split fins? Two of them were the dive guides ... people who live there and dive these sites regularly. Now, the only people in Indonesia I have ever seen in freediving fins are people who work there and dive the same sites regularly ... whether that be here, or in Komodo, or in Raja Ampat ... all places well known for heavy and unpredictable currents. Would it be any less reasonable to suppose that these two women who work there were in fins optimized for those conditions, as opposed to fins that would make diving there more difficult?

Suppose these women were actually in freediving fins. Then what's the conclusion? One of them is the woman who's still missing, you know.

You see, Dan and you are welcome to make any assumptions you like ... but so am I. We're both, after all, working from the exact same information.

But what does that tell us, really, about how a different choice of equipment might have affected the outcome?

Nothing, really ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

My point was that it is foolish for people like Bob, or shops, or the industry, to allow new divers to think that ANY fin they like, will be good for them in emergency situations.....Bob, you sound like my suggestions are making you defensive--because you know you have never pushed people toward the emergency safety of free diving fins.

Clearly you know nothing about free diving fins......you keep babbling about the power it takes to use them...And yet, one of the coolest things about freedive fins, is that they have soft models for weaker muscled divers ( or fit ones that will be in a freedive contest in-water for 8 hours straight of fast swimming). So instead of acting like a "know it all" instructor, that doesn't____....maybe you ought to learn a little about some gear that COULD be the difference between life and death, in a place where 5 minutes of fast swimming, could prevent you from being swept out to sea....

1. You don't need to be strong, or an aerobic monster, to benefit from soft free diving fins. They are much more efficient and faster than splits...they don't require much fitness....they do require some marginal fitness and coordination.
2.While divers don't have to be athletes.....every instructor should tell divers that they should not dive if they are dangerously unfit....or if they do dive and are severely unfit--they should only dive in very sheltered areas---and I only mention this because of Bob's continual references to unfit divers.
3. In a thread like this....where the idea is to prevent FUTURE DEATHS by looking for better practices or for defective gear...something that could have changed the outcome--here Bob is trying to DEFLECT from what is obviously a high risk factor for divers that visit a place where ocean conditions can get dicey.....Many years of my postings on fins have always been about this...about being able to move when you need to..and as fast as you need to. The important discussion here, is how divers that read this thread, could not fall victim to currents and waves if they are on a trip some day, and there is no boat when they surface. There is a lesson to be learned, even if it goes against what you have been granting to so many divers--in the way of telling them that ANY fins are ok...Well Bob, they are not.

Some Fins can get you back to an anchored boat off Fort Lauderdale..and some could not....some fins will make the difference in many challenging areas....It does not matter if the fin solution will not solve 100% of the emergency scenarios. If it helps with 1/3 or with half, that is a huge benefit.

 

[Hank49]

I have no intention to.

But since we're making suppositions, why limit it to supposing these women were wearing split fins? Two of them were the dive guides ... people who live there and dive these sites regularly. Now, the only people in Indonesia I have ever seen in freediving fins are people who work there and dive the same sites regularly ... whether that be here, or in Komodo, or in Raja Ampat ... all places well known for heavy and unpredictable currents. Would it be any less reasonable to suppose that these two women who work there were in fins optimized for those conditions, as opposed to fins that would make diving there more difficult?

Suppose these women were actually in freediving fins. Then what's the conclusion? One of them is the woman who's still missing, you know.

You see, Dan and you are welcome to make any assumptions you like ... but so am I. We're both, after all, working from the exact same information.

But what does that tell us, really, about how a different choice of equipment might have affected the outcome?

Nothing, really ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

The difference here is Dan is generalizing about the benefit of long blade free dive fins and how they COULD help save lives. You're limiting your input to this incident and therefore saying that choice of fins is insignificant.
I agree with his generalization. But as you said, no one really knows what went down with these divers.

Again, have you ever tried a good pair of long blade carbons?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Actually if Dan were generalizing about the benefit of long blade fins, I'd have agreed with him. But that's not what he did ... what he did was assume that these women were wearing split fins (based on no information whatsoever) and blather on about how a better fin choice could have saved their lives. And not just any better fin choice ... fins that were specifically designed for an activity that doesn't even involve scuba. In other words, he's assuming that regular scuba fins are all crap. He's also assuming that none of these women were, in fact, using the fins he's recommending. How could they be, after all ... if they were only wearing his fins none of this would have happened.

What a bundle of bullsh!t.

The facts, as we know them, would point to the cause of the accident to be more related to weather, probably a poor decision to do the dive, and a boat captain that left his divers in order to go get more fuel.

When I pointed out to him that his assumptions were based on no evidence, and inappropriate in the A&I forum, Dan then went on the attack ... making a bunch of assumptions about what I know, accusations about how I teach, and then descended into inane name-calling ... channeling his friend George Irvine, no doubt ... and none of which had anything whatsoever to do with the accident. Never mind that a bunch of other people agreed with me, and that his wild-ass tangent was ultimately pulled by a moderator ... which only supports my case that the topic wasn't appropriate to the accident thread.

Dan ... I get it ... you're the world's freak'n awesomest diver. You take every opportunity to tell us that, as well as name-drop all the freak'n awesome divers you dive with. It's an ego trip for you ... we understand ... the only safe divers in the world are the ones who dive exactly like you do.

You are right ... I have never pushed anybody toward free diver fins. I have never pushed anybody toward any piece of diving equipment. That's not my job. My job is to help them understand that every piece of gear they choose comes with advantages and drawbacks ... and to help them understand the limitations of whatever equipment choices they make. I don't sell dive gear. I'll happily tell anyone why I made the choices I made for myself ... but I will not insist they make the same choices I did. As a dive instructor, my job is not to tell them what to buy, but to help them make their own informed choices.

So congratulations dude ... you win. I hope that makes you and your fins very happy.

And Hank, to answer your question ... no ... I have no interest in paying over $400 for a pair of fins. I have no need to do so ... my Hollis F1's make me very happy, and perform every bit as much as I need them to.

And I very much doubt either you or Dan would have any success convincing a bunch of Japanese tourists to buy $400 fins either ... nor the dive op they probably rented their equipment from.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[buddhasummer]

danvolkers law

"Given enough time, in any online scuba discussion - regardless of topic or scope - Dan inevitably makes a comparison to free diving fins"

---------- Post added February 20th, 2014 at 01:48 AM ----------

I've no doubt Dan you have some valid points but unfortunately it gets lost in the noise.

 

[charlier]

Hi all, I will try to change the tone of the thread and ask a few questions.


A few weeks ago, my wife and I visited Lembongan for a week. This is one of our local dive spots. Before we decided on our trip, we often check on the swell height and direction, lunar cycle, and winds, nearby Lembongan. Our dive centre also considers this as well as timing of the tidal cycle and our dives. This is one key element for safe diving in the Indonesian through-flow. Many accidents in Komodo occur when the tides (rapidly falling tides) are ignored. We all seek strong currents for pelagics, but it seems to me that good planning really helps mitigate potential problems.


On our trips, we bring all of our own equipment, including SMB, reef hook, light, and sound source. I use tec fins (F2) and never had a problem with strong current in the Komodo Islands or Bali. Using the sea floor topography and finning oblique to the current works fine. For a site such as Batu Balong, Komodo Islands,,the timing of the dive is key for looking at fish and safety (tides and lunar cycle). Here, the down currents are just dangerous, but easy to avoid.


Last Saturday (second day for the missing divers), we dove out of Padangbai, at G. Tepekong and G. Mimpang. On this trip, my wife rented all her equipment. She did not have her SMB/reel, reef hook, light, etc. In hindsight, she will always bring her stuff, including BCD, regs., BCD, etc.


So one question is, as a diver, far from home, how much stuff do you bring, either to a remote land-based resort or LOB in Raja Ampat or Komodo? Or even in Bali. How much do you pay attention to the dive briefing and how much do you talk with your dive guide about conditions?

 

[divewench1]

Confession time: Hello, my name is Amanda, and I wear spilt fins!

5 years diving all the dive sites in Bali, including the more extreme sites on a regular basis, had very strong down and up currents, and I wear split fins. Never had any problems with them, can kick as strongly as the next man, and find that solid fins give me cramp.

Your equipment is your own personal choice, what suits you, your build and your fitness level. Unfortunately, we saw many divers dripping in kit, like bloody Christmas trees, wearing wings, all black kit, like little ninja's, who had all the gear but no idea, and couldn't kick for toffee, no matter what they were wearing.

Are you aware that the Open water course for Japanese students doesn't include a swim test, as lots of these little money makers would be disqualified from diving as they cannot swim.

Just another angle :fish:

 

[danvolker]

Actually if Dan were generalizing about the benefit of long blade fins, I'd have agreed with him. But that's not what he did ... what he did was assume that these women were wearing split fins (based on no information whatsoever) and blather on about how a better fin choice could have saved their lives. And not just any better fin choice ... fins that were specifically designed for an activity that doesn't even involve scuba. In other words, he's assuming that regular scuba fins are all crap. He's also assuming that none of these women were, in fact, using the fins he's recommending. How could they be, after all ... if they were only wearing his fins none of this would have happened.

What a bundle of bullsh!t.

The facts, as we know them, would point to the cause of the accident to be more related to weather, probably a poor decision to do the dive, and a boat captain that left his divers in order to go get more fuel.

When I pointed out to him that his assumptions were based on no evidence, and inappropriate in the A&I forum, Dan then went on the attack ... making a bunch of assumptions about what I know, accusations about how I teach, and then descended into inane name-calling ... channeling his friend George Irvine, no doubt ... and none of which had anything whatsoever to do with the accident. Never mind that a bunch of other people agreed with me, and that his wild-ass tangent was ultimately pulled by a moderator ... which only supports my case that the topic wasn't appropriate to the accident thread.

Dan ... I get it ... you're the world's freak'n awesomest diver. You take every opportunity to tell us that, as well as name-drop all the freak'n awesome divers you dive with. It's an ego trip for you ... we understand ... the only safe divers in the world are the ones who dive exactly like you do.

You are right ... I have never pushed anybody toward free diver fins. I have never pushed anybody toward any piece of diving equipment. That's not my job. My job is to help them understand that every piece of gear they choose comes with advantages and drawbacks ... and to help them understand the limitations of whatever equipment choices they make. I don't sell dive gear. I'll happily tell anyone why I made the choices I made for myself ... but I will not insist they make the same choices I did. As a dive instructor, my job is not to tell them what to buy, but to help them make their own informed choices.

So congratulations dude ... you win. I hope that makes you and your fins very happy.

And Hank, to answer your question ... no ... I have no interest in paying over $400 for a pair of fins. I have no need to do so ... my Hollis F1's make me very happy, and perform every bit as much as I need them to.

And I very much doubt either you or Dan would have any success convincing a bunch of Japanese tourists to buy $400 fins either ... nor the dive op they probably rented their equipment from.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

A very self serving, and ficticious account of this thread. Bob, you started this by attacking me....and by ignoring the accident analysis function of this forum....and you went downhill from there. And now you are even saying that you are proud to NOT have any experience with freedive fins, and of course that makes you an expert on what they are good for. Pretty sad Bob.


Again, this forum is NOT here to make the families of dead divers feel better--that is what Passings is for...This forum is to look at an accident, and discuss how divers in general, could avoid the bad outcome(s) involved.
For some reason, you were intent on ignoring analysis of everything these Japanese divers did when they found the boat gone--and ignoring how their gear choices COULD HAVE EFFECTED THE OUTCOME.

I began by placing the MAJOR blame on the grossly negligent boat operator.....but then as another poster also mentioned, once you established this, the next point is that as divers, we all NEED to have a plan for what we would do if there is no boat on the surface when we come up...This is not the first, or the last incident where this has occurred.

If in fact, the local currents are so hostile that the area truly is deadly on it's own, then any diver that is diving this area, MUST have a plan for dealing with the area in case of a lost boat--just as I mentioned the why of a diver's life raft, for tech dives 25 miles from shore off of Fort Pierce....Many thousands of other divers will find themselves in this area of the accident... in the future--each should have a plan in their mind about how to be self-sufficient. Gear certainly IS part of this equation, as is the proper training to be in an environment this inhospitable to divers. And..this is not about what these Japanese divers did not do.....it never was ( except in the mind of Bob)--it is about how someone today or tomorrow, faced with a similar problem, might handle the situation, but the key difference is that they are "armed" with the knowledge of this entire discussion, and potentially will have chosen specific gear, and or, training, so that they could they handle the bigger issues we discussed....
Bob, I really don't know how you can re-purpose my multi-year track record of explaining that Freedive fins provide emergency safety to scuba divers, into an attack on me.....not that I really care what Bob thinks....but I do care that that your deception assists with the general mis-information of the dive industry --in the way it actively promotes bad gear with good...

 

[The Wolf]

Who are you to say this had nothing to do with poor propulsion gear?
You can't deny that on a given charter boat, that there are massive differences in comfortable cruising speeds between divers with split fins, and the divers with freedive fins..or other fins that are just good..like Cressi master frogs, etc.

In any event, this IS the forum where discussion of bad gear choices that can cause an accident, are relevant.

The issue here has nothing to do with what fins they were or weren't using. I know the waters here and I know the currents out here and how difficult a tired diver will find it in open sea.

No amount of kicking will help if you are stuck where you are in the middle of a friggin storm with choppy seas and strong winds. And the fins may make a minimal improvement on your propulsion but for how long? And how exhausted were the divers? They had just flown 13-14 hours the day before from Japan and were on their 3rd dive. As the gentleman above has correctly assessed, "The facts, as we know them, would point to the cause of the accident to be more related to weather, probably a poor decision to do the dive, and a boat captain that left his divers in order to go get more fuel." These are F.A.C.T.S that we know of.

Nobody in their right mind that I know invest's in the fins you talk about because most people are social divers who dive 1-2 times a year. Would the fins have made a difference in this situation? I seriously doubt it. And this is based once again, on my own experinces out here. If the currents are as strong as they can be and the seas as choppy as they can be, you tire out after 15-20 minutes of kicking before you eventually just give up...and they did..and they stuck together.



---------- Post added February 20th, 2014 at 09:27 PM ----------

Confession time: Hello, my name is Amanda, and I wear spilt fins!

5 years diving all the dive sites in Bali, including the more extreme sites on a regular basis, had very strong down and up currents, and I wear split fins. Never had any problems with them, can kick as strongly as the next man, and find that solid fins give me cramp.

Your equipment is your own personal choice, what suits you, your build and your fitness level. Unfortunately, we saw many divers dripping in kit, like bloody Christmas trees, wearing wings, all black kit, like little ninja's, who had all the gear but no idea, and couldn't kick for toffee, no matter what they were wearing.

Are you aware that the Open water course for Japanese students doesn't include a swim test, as lots of these little money makers would be disqualified from diving as they cannot swim.

Just another angle :fish:

You would be surprised how many divers in asia take up diving without knowing how to swim. I swear it's true. And they all get passed.

---------- Post added February 20th, 2014 at 09:37 PM ----------

Hi all, I will try to change the tone of the thread and ask a few questions.


A few weeks ago, my wife and I visited Lembongan for a week. This is one of our local dive spots. Before we decided on our trip, we often check on the swell height and direction, lunar cycle, and winds, nearby Lembongan. Our dive centre also considers this as well as timing of the tidal cycle and our dives. This is one key element for safe diving in the Indonesian through-flow. Many accidents in Komodo occur when the tides (rapidly falling tides) are ignored. We all seek strong currents for pelagics, but it seems to me that good planning really helps mitigate potential problems.


On our trips, we bring all of our own equipment, including SMB, reef hook, light, and sound source. I use tec fins (F2) and never had a problem with strong current in the Komodo Islands or Bali. Using the sea floor topography and finning oblique to the current works fine. For a site such as Batu Balong, Komodo Islands,,the timing of the dive is key for looking at fish and safety (tides and lunar cycle). Here, the down currents are just dangerous, but easy to avoid.


Last Saturday (second day for the missing divers), we dove out of Padangbai, at G. Tepekong and G. Mimpang. On this trip, my wife rented all her equipment. She did not have her SMB/reel, reef hook, light, etc. In hindsight, she will always bring her stuff, including BCD, regs., BCD, etc.


So one question is, as a diver, far from home, how much stuff do you bring, either to a remote land-based resort or LOB in Raja Ampat or Komodo? Or even in Bali. How much do you pay attention to the dive briefing and how much do you talk with your dive guide about conditions?

Most divers I see around here (me included) bring the basics..mask, fins, BCD and a orange sausage, a small basic dive knife, wet suit (full lycra) and one of those tank knockers to attract the attention of a diver underwater..and a whistle.

And I always make it a point to stick close to the dive leader rather than go gallavanting on my own or to hang too far at the back. Dive briefings in my experince tend to be basic with the need to know stuff, very little on currents except which way the currents will be going and what the plan of action is if separated.

Recoveries by the boat after the dives are not really touched on so you just assume the boat will be there and the boat man will be watching out for you.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

A very self serving, and ficticious account of this thread. Bob, you started this by attacking me....and by ignoring the accident analysis function of this forum....and you went downhill from there. And now you are even saying that you are proud to NOT have any experience with freedive fins, and of course that makes you an expert on what they are good for. Pretty sad Bob.

Hank asked me if I've tried a very specific type of freedive fin ... and I answered his question.

As usual, you drew erroneous conclusions from that response.

Please don't talk to anyone else about being self-serving ... look in a mirror first. All of your posts can be described that way.

You are the ghost of your mentor, George Irvine. Florida is still recovering from that particular wind storm ... please consider not bringing it here.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)