Freediving fins might help

[Barrod]

You ... don't ... know ... what ... kind ... of ... fins ... they ... were ... using ...

Those are all very short words, Dan ... and very accurate.

Furthermore, to suggest that a "better" choice of fin would have any impact on people who have been in the water for many hours, been pushed around by currents, wind and waves ... and they somehow will have the strength to push freediving fins through the water in anything resembling effectiveness is ridiculous. These people had to have been exhausted long before the currents ever allowed them close enough to land to have made a difference.

Speculate if you like ... you've lost any credibility you ever had with me.

I'll honor these courageous women for having had the strength and stamina to survive the ordeal ... it's easy to sit in the comfort of your office and criticize, but somehow I don't think you and your fins would have fared any better than they did under the same circumstances.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Your logic is so bad its ugly. It doesnt matter what they were using. What matters is that split fins dont have all the thrust you may need in an emergency. Its a fact. You mention hours at sea. What if the right gear choice could have prevented someone being swept away in the 1st place? No need for hours at sea thanks to the correct gear. Whats so complicated about that concept?

 

[BRT]

I agree with Dan on this one. His points are very valid. I never understood on this forum all the cheap tight wad divers complaining any time a different gear choice is suggested. Safer is safer. I saw a couple of divers with literally these little plastic sheets tied to their feet, some sort of hokey travel fin. I wouldnt dive in that if my life were at stake. Which it is. Every time.

The fastest scuba divers I've ever dove with use cheap plastic full foot fins that they repair with fishing line when they break. It would be great if we were all in perfect shape and could take full advantage of the very stiffest fastest fins. The fact is that if I dive with those I rapidly get cramps and make no progress. My splits don't do that to me nearly as much. After about 30 years diving you get some idea of what works for you.

You scooter guys, how fast can you go? Does it tend to pull the mask off your face?

 

[Barrod]

I agree with Dan on this one. His points are very valid. I never understood on this forum all the cheap tight wad divers complaining any time a different gear choice is suggested. Safer is safer. I saw a couple of divers with literally these little plastic sheets tied to their feet, some sort of hokey travel fin. I wouldnt dive in that if my life were at stake. Which it is. Every time.

The fastest scuba divers I've ever dove with use cheap plastic full foot fins that they repair with fishing line when they break. It would be great if we were all in perfect shape and could take full advantage of the very stiffest fastest fins. The fact is that if I dive with those I rapidly get cramps and make no progress. My splits don't do that to me nearly as much. After about 30 years diving you get some idea of what works for you.

You scooter guys, how fast can you go? Does it tend to pull the mask off your face?

Im not in shape yet but trying. Leading up to diving vacations I train a lot In the pool with my fins to get my legs ready

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Your logic is so bad its ugly. It doesnt matter what they were using. What matters is that split fins dont have all the thrust you may need in an emergency. Its a fact. You mention hours at sea. What if the right gear choice could have prevented someone being swept away in the 1st place? No need for hours at sea thanks to the correct gear. Whats so complicated about that concept?

I wasn't objecting to the logic ... I was objecting to where you and Dan chose to take up the argument.

How do you know any of these women were wearing split fins? You just don't see them all that much in Indonesia, as they're generally pretty expensive. Granted these were Japanese tourists, but you still have no idea whether they were wearing split fins or not ... or whether these women brought their own equipment from Japan or were renting something in Bali.

It helps, in the context of a discussion, to base it on factual information. And in this case, you're lacking that. And if your profile's accurate, you're lacking any practical experience in either the fins or the location.

But now that this discussion's in the appropriate forum, you're welcome to push freediving fins for every scuba diver on the planet, in every possible application, if that's what floats your boat ... this is the place for that discussion to take place.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Barrod]

I dont know why a casual discussion has to only discuss known facts and not hypotheticals. Especially since it may help divers (like myself) who are interested in avoiding what happened to them happen to me.

After reading this thread I now realize the importance of propulsion even more and would never wear 2nd rate gear (not that I ever have). I want to make sure if a current is taking me out to sea I have the equipment to fight for my life.

Dans post helped a newer diver like me understand a lesson I can take away from those poor Japanese tourists.

 

[Hank49]

Speculate if you like ... you've lost any credibility you ever had with me.

I'll honor these courageous women for having had the strength and stamina to survive the ordeal ... it's easy to sit in the comfort of your office and criticize, but somehow I don't think you and your fins would have fared any better than they did under the same circumstances.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I think you're missing Dan's message Bob. Yes, it may be a bit Richard Shermanish but I think Dan is trying to make it safer for newer divers who get into trouble in strong currents. Yes, any fin would be hard to swim with for 24 hours…or more in any conditions. But the right fins may have prevented that. A quick blast for a minute or two to get across a ripping current into a back eddy COULD really help. I do this quite often when diving the cuts here in Belize.

And Dan is not pushing a brand. Only a concept or design.

I somewhat share Dan's enthusiasm. Have you ever tried a good pair of carbon blades, Bob? Most don't because they cost over $400. My one buddy is 73 years old….a stubborn user of ScubaPro Jets for years. I gave him a pair of my old plastic Riffe blades and he'll never go back. They do make a big difference.

And RIP divers. Prayers to their families.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I dont know why a casual discussion has to only discuss known facts and not hypotheticals. Especially since it may help divers (like myself) who are interested in avoiding what happened to them happen to me.

After reading this thread I now realize the importance of propulsion even more and would never wear 2nd rate gear (not that I ever have). I want to make sure if a current is taking me out to sea I have the equipment to fight for my life.

Dans post helped a newer diver like me understand a lesson I can take away from those poor Japanese tourists.

Perhaps Dan's post helped you realize there are more choices out there ... what it didn't do is help you comprehend the advantages and drawbacks to those choices. Nor did it tell you anything about those poor Japanese tourists. It was highly inappropriate for that particular thread. And since Dan manages to work freediving fins into pretty much everything he posts on ScubaBoard, I'm certain you could have picked up that information without "blamestorming" the victims of a tragedy.

I recommend before you go off buying a set of fins ... regardless of type ... you try them out and decide for yourself whether or not they're right for you. There's a massive difference between reading "logic" into an equipment choice, and comprehending how it can help you in a real-world diving situation.

As I said before, I don't sell gear ... and I don't push one type of equipment over another. I've tried many different types of fins, own four different sets personally, and have owned about 10 different sets previously ... and they all have advantages and drawbacks.

There is no such thing as a "best" fin ... there's only one that's best for you, based on your personal goals and preferences.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added February 19th, 2014 at 03:22 PM ----------

I think you're missing Dan's message Bob. Yes, it may be a bit Richard Shermanish but I think Dan is trying to make it safer for newer divers who get into trouble in strong currents. Yes, any fin would be hard to swim with for 24 hours…or more in any conditions. But the right fins may have prevented that. A quick blast for a minute or two to get across a ripping current into a back eddy COULD really help. I do this quite often when diving the cuts here in Belize.

I somewhat share Dan's enthusiasm. Have you ever tried a good pair of carbon blades, Bob? Most don't because they cost over $400. My one buddy is 73 years old….a stubborn user of ScubaPro Jets for years. I gave him a pair of my old plastic Riffe blades and he'll never go back. They do make a big difference.

And RIP divers. Prayers to their families.

I didn't miss his message ... I just don't think that was the appropriate place to make it.

I've dived in the area where those women were lost ... and I doubt very much a "quick blast for a minute or two" would have done a thing for them ... the currents there can overpower a scooter if you hit them wrong, and they aren't just going in one direction all the time. It's the only place I've ever dived where I got separated from the boat ... but in our case it was only for about a half-hour, and the boat was able to find us because the weather was nice. But I don't for a moment believe that swimming to shore would have been an option, regardless of equipment choices.

The fact that they managed to make landfall after so many hours wasn't a matter of equipment ... it was sheer luck.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Bob,
Give it a rest ... if only they had scooters, this wouldn't have happened.

First, let me preface this in that I am a greenhorn: 46 recorded dives to date and am a rescue diver. I am not someone with a lot of experience or expertise, but I would like to inject something here, given that I do own a scooter: the Apollo AV-2. With a saddle, you do cruise along fairly quick at full throttle (don't know how fast, but I would like to figure that out some day) as you are more streamlined than if you are holding onto it with your hands.

But the problem with dive scooters is that they rely on batteries with limited battery life. Even if someone has the higher end battery on a recreational scooter, how much time do they have? I'm going to throw out 2 hours tops, though likely less (I haven't had the opportunity to run my DPV till it dies, I'll do that over the summer in Hood Canal). Now if they were using tec diving scooters with high end batteries, they have more time (but how many operations would be renting those to customers?). Regardless, for how long would the tec scooter last? When would they use them? At what point do they try to conserve battery? At what point do they go for broke, abandon them, then use their own power?

These women were out there for days. Whether they each had a DPV and freediving fins, were in amazing shape, and on their first dive of the day, in this situation where they have lost the boat, would it matter? Isn't it more important to have the appropriate gear for being found?

I don't know where they surfaced, how close they were to any land, etc.. I don't know how strong the currents were and what they would have to go through in order to reach land safely (and by this I mean a beach, not the cliffs they wound up on).

I've read through the original thread and trying to take away as many valuable lessons so that I can prepare myself with training and equipment (and practicing with that equipment) for if I would ever be in such a situation myself.

 

[Hank49]

I've dived in the area where those women were lost ... and I doubt very much a "quick blast for a minute or two" would have done a thing for them ... the currents there can overpower a scooter if you hit them wrong, and they aren't just going in one direction all the time. It's the only place I've ever dived where I got separated from the boat ... but in our case it was only for about a half-hour, and the boat was able to find us because the weather was nice. But I don't for a moment believe that swimming to shore would have been an option, regardless of equipment choices.

The fact that they managed to make landfall after so many hours wasn't a matter of equipment ... it was sheer luck.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

But, as you said to Dan, you weren't there so you don't know either. He has a right to voice his opinion on what he thinks could prevent this from happening. If you don't agree, fine. If you don't like him, fine. That thread also wasn't the place for you to jump his ****. This one however....is about fins. Now you can jump mine too if you want.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I have no intention to.

But since we're making suppositions, why limit it to supposing these women were wearing split fins? Two of them were the dive guides ... people who live there and dive these sites regularly. Now, the only people in Indonesia I have ever seen in freediving fins are people who work there and dive the same sites regularly ... whether that be here, or in Komodo, or in Raja Ampat ... all places well known for heavy and unpredictable currents. Would it be any less reasonable to suppose that these two women who work there were in fins optimized for those conditions, as opposed to fins that would make diving there more difficult?

Suppose these women were actually in freediving fins. Then what's the conclusion? One of them is the woman who's still missing, you know.

You see, Dan and you are welcome to make any assumptions you like ... but so am I. We're both, after all, working from the exact same information.

But what does that tell us, really, about how a different choice of equipment might have affected the outcome?

Nothing, really ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)