Freediving fins might help

[MXGratefulDiver]

I call BS to that....we get 3 to 5 mph currents all the time in Palm Beach.....it's not like we don't know currents.....and one thing that is obvious, is that there are MAJOR differences between how divers on charter boats are able to go against currents, or crosswise to them if desired or required. Splits being the most ineffective.

If fit divers could not do a bad day with freedive fins, then normal divers could not do this on a normal day.....If you are talking 8 and 10 mph currents, then how in the he&& does a charter operator justify operating in it?

I have done lots of diving around Fiji, with freedive fins ( even left a pair for the DM when I left)....and they allowed me to do anything I wanted to, at any time, at any site.

This is a nonsense of the dive industry, thinking that all fins are equal, and that divers don't NEED to be able to have REAL Propulsion if conditions dictate it.....While fitness does play here....put a "fit diver" in splits, in a huge Palm Beach current, ask him to go sideways or up current, and he is a leaf in the wind...put freedive fins on the same fit diver...or for that matter, Extra Force Fins, and the fit diver will blast up current with no problem, or across current.
We see this all the time...fortunately in Palm Beach we have great drift boat operators, so that all these people with split fins are not going to ever need to fight a current--the boat will get them wherever they are taken to.

Way to go, Dan ... now you're pushing your equipment obsession into a discussion of a tragedy. That's way beyond poor taste, and bordering on downright morbid.

Do you get royalties for freediving fin sales or something.

Give it a rest ... if only they had scooters, this wouldn't have happened.

You're not "teaching" anybody anything ... you're forcing them to tune you out. Bring that up in appropriate forums ... here it's so incredibly inappropriate I'm amazed to see that you did it ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[danvolker]

Way to go, Dan ... now you're pushing your equipment obsession into a discussion of a tragedy. That's way beyond poor taste, and bordering on downright morbid.

Bob,
I am getting sick of you and a few others not having the sense to know that some gear is inherently dangerous--because of what can happen in emergency scenarios. I have been posting this stuff about fins for years now, PRECISELY BECAUSE of the danger of an incident like this occurring.

Do you get royalties for freediving fin sales or something.

No....but your poor understanding of gear needs in dangerous conditions, has certainly put past students of yours in danger. And yes, you did get money from shops you were affiliated with, that were selling poor gear choices to your students--did you not?


Give it a rest ... if only they had scooters, this wouldn't have happened.

You're not "teaching" anybody anything ... you're forcing them to tune you out. Bring that up in appropriate forums ... here it's so incredibly inappropriate I'm amazed to see that you did it ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

And I am all the more amazed that you can't connect the dots...this is a forum where we are supposed to discuss terrible accidents, and attempt to find ways to PREVENT such terrible accidents from happening again.... And I do happen to feel that huge failures in propulsion gear and training, were a real part of this horror show....Though the primary failing was the gross negligence of the boat operator....still, I stand by my comments in this thread as being necessary...even though over your head.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

This accident wasn't the result of their equipment choices, Dan ... to bring that up here borders on the repulsive.

Take your crusade to the appropriate forum.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[danvolker]

This accident wasn't the result of their equipment choices, Dan ... to bring that up here borders on the repulsive.

Take your crusade to the appropriate forum.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Who are you to say this had nothing to do with poor propulsion gear?
You can't deny that on a given charter boat, that there are massive differences in comfortable cruising speeds between divers with split fins, and the divers with freedive fins..or other fins that are just good..like Cressi master frogs, etc.

In any event, this IS the forum where discussion of bad gear choices that can cause an accident, are relevant.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I am getting sick of you and a few others not having the sense to know that some gear is inherently dangerous--because of what can happen in emergency scenarios. I have been posting this stuff about fins for years now, PRECISELY BECAUSE of the danger of an incident like this occurring.

Tens of thousands of divers dive safely with standard recreational equipment every single day. The reality simply doesn't fit your assertion that a choice of fins is somehow "dangerous" ... or that it had anything whatsoever to do with this accident.

No....but your poor understanding of gear needs in dangerous conditions, has certainly put past students of yours in danger.

Really? Kindly give me an example. I'll guarantee you that you can't point to one single incident where I have EVER put a student of mine in danger ... particularly over an equipment choice.

And yes, you did get money from shops you were affiliated with, that were selling poor gear choices to your students--did you not?

I don't teach through a shop ... and I don't sell gear. Nor do I push one particular type of equipment over another.

And I am all the more amazed that you can't connect the dots...this is a forum where we are supposed to discuss terrible accidents, and attempt to find ways to PREVENT such terrible accidents from happening again.... And I do happen to feel that huge failures in propulsion gear and training, were a real part of this horror show....Though the primary failing was the gross negligence of the boat operator....still, I stand by my comments in this thread as being necessary...even though over your head.

And you know this was, as you put it a "huge failure in propulsion gear and training" ... HOW??

Were you there?

Do you know what conditions these women were faced with?

Do you have a CLUE how they trained?

Of course not.

Turning this into a crusade for your equipment choices is offensive ... and completely off-topic.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[danvolker]

Tens of thousands of divers dive safely with standard recreational equipment every single day. The reality simply doesn't fit your assertion that a choice of fins is somehow "dangerous" ... or that it had anything whatsoever to do with this accident.

Turning this into a crusade for your equipment choices is offensive ... and completely off-topic.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Tens of thousands of divers get by every day, because the boats take good care of them, they get pampered by DM's, and because most dive operators are dropping these tens of thousands of divers into very easy conditions ( in other words, the major dive vacation destinations of the world).
If they had to be self sufficient, and no longer have the boat or DM's to rely on...the equipment choices would become far more important, as would the training.....

As to my having offended you Bob--- with my concerns about fins that will fail a diver in an emergency scenario....Let's just say it is unfortunate that my pointing out flaws in he system, is so hard on you.

 

[Barrod]

I agree with Dan on this one. His points are very valid. I never understood on this forum all the cheap tight wad divers complaining any time a different gear choice is suggested. Safer is safer. I saw a couple of divers with literally these little plastic sheets tied to their feet, some sort of hokey travel fin. I wouldnt dive in that if my life were at stake. Which it is. Every time.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

... so then you know what kind of fins these women were using?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[danvolker]

... so then you know what kind of fins these women were using?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

What we know is that the dive industry, the magazines, and most of the shops-- PUSH split fins....What I know if I get on a charter boat in south Florida, or the Keys, or Cayman....or even Fiji, is that 9 times out of 10, a large percentage of the paying dive passengers will be using split fins --whether half, 3/4ths...or even all of them.

For the purposes of future decision making, divers should know that if there ever did have to "swim for shore", and if there were currents involved--that there would be some fins that were very bad choices for this...and some that would be very good choices for this....

Most would never think of this, and that is wrong. Most only want to think of what is easiest to learn to use, which offers the easiest kicking for slow speed use....and the vast majority will run around saying that divers should never desire or need to swim fast. I have always argued against this, and I always will.

And while fitness is relevant....the fit diver will be more likely to survive a big challenge than the unfit one.....the freedive blade used correctly, can be pushed with slow frequency kicks to drastically reduce workload....but this means a diver has to learn how to kick, and no one pushes this as a need.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

You ... don't ... know ... what ... kind ... of ... fins ... they ... were ... using ...

Those are all very short words, Dan ... and very accurate.

Furthermore, to suggest that a "better" choice of fin would have any impact on people who have been in the water for many hours, been pushed around by currents, wind and waves ... and they somehow will have the strength to push freediving fins through the water in anything resembling effectiveness is ridiculous. These people had to have been exhausted long before the currents ever allowed them close enough to land to have made a difference.

Speculate if you like ... you've lost any credibility you ever had with me.

I'll honor these courageous women for having had the strength and stamina to survive the ordeal ... it's easy to sit in the comfort of your office and criticize, but somehow I don't think you and your fins would have fared any better than they did under the same circumstances.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)