Freediving fins might help

[danvolker]

I don't have any idea of how they behave with sideways current, it may well be they don't perform as well. But you are mentioning many times your experience and failing to recognize the reports from divers who have splits and are fine in currents:

In the last 20 years, I have been diving extensively on the charter boats in Palm Beach, sometimes leading dives, many times just being in the water with groups....and when I am in the water with a group, I am looking at the individuals in it, and deciding if there are any in the group that might need help....if there is any proactive strategy being called for. So I have thousands of divers I have seen with split fins on, trying to swim sideways to currents, or head in to the current, or just along downstream with the current....I have watched and dove with split fin divers that could pretty much do everything that most paddle fin divers can do...and with split fin divers that I have had to personally tow for 50 yards sideways to the current, so that they could remain in a group. I have plenty of experience with how well splits work in a current--and I have worn them myself to see if different kick shapes would assist the split wearers....So when I don't recognize the reports of divers like Bowl of petunias, that claim they can do it all with splits, I think I have this in perspective.

Sometimes I wonder if you really know how fins work. Free diving fins of the same stifness of a smaller typical scuba fin, being larger will have a larger area in contact with the water and thus offer more resistence to the kicking action. Since each action has an opposing reaction, that reaction is what propels the diver forward. Since this is also greater, the diver moves faster. IF he can kick with the same velocity. And maybe even being slightly slower will still result in greater speed. But if the diver is not fit enough for this, then it will kick slowly, or get tired, get cramps... As you say, there are softer blades. A softer blade will bend more, and the forward propulsion will be more due to the blade springing back into its flat shape. This is all very good in a streamlined free diver or when there is little current. In stronger current they will not be as efficient as the hard blades and will not be enough. So we go back to requiring fit divers. (Not that I think a diver should be out of shape, but there are many divers physically well who wouldn't be able to fin hard with freediving fins).

Let's get into this a little..
The blades on DiveR's, or Moanas, or C4 Mustangs, or Mako carbons, or special fins.com , are NOT structurally similar to paddle fins like Quatros or Jets or the others...they don't bend the same way, and it is not just a length issue. I could cut my DiveR blades to be the length of an xl Jetfin, and the performance of the DiveR cut like this, would be drastically superior to the jet. The way the fins bend is very different--the "where" of the bend in the fins, and the push back after the kick is very different.
The full length DiveR blade, allows me to begin a bend in the blade, and keep this optimal efficient bend( for propulsion) for a very long time, without effort. In contrast, a jet fin is very stiff, and has to be kicked hard to get a bend going that will offer the more efficient propulsion than is possible by pushing a jet fin blade with less power, and getting essentially zero bending of the blade. The fin is really only efficient with an ideal bend angle, and it is very limited with jets and most paddle fins....With the better freedive fins, there is a wide range of power application, and kick shape, that will produce an efficient bend in the fin, and the long length of the fin allows you to keep this push from the bend going for a very long time---this being the big amplitude, low frequency kick that uses up so little energy from the diver.
This is all true in scuba, as well as it is in freediving.

We have very soft blades , medium, and many that are stiffer for most makes of freedive fins. Think of a bag of golf clubs, where you can get exactly the right "club" for the mission.

A diver that has been mostly sedentary, with low muscle power and low aerobic fitness, will like the very soft bladed freedive fins, that were actually made for fit free divers doing 8 or 12 hour long freedive spearfishing contests.....So the guy doing a 12 hour series of sprints and high pace, and some easy rests, will NOT want to ever put out more power( muscle exertion) than would be easy for a very sedentary desk jockey or couch potato.
The soft freedive fin will allow the easy bending propulsion of the freedive fin, for the long amplitude...and the slow frequency--and low heart rate and low exertion rate in the non-fit scuba diver. Having a scuba tank and BC on only means this non-fit diver can't cruise as fast as their evil twin would without the tank and BC.It would still work the same way---with the high drag tank/bc, they just adjust the amplitude and kick shape of the soft fin, and they get a very easy push, that lasts for a very long time ( unlike with the splits or jets)....they won't get nearly the glide that a free diver would get, but they still have incredible propulsion.
But here you get to the rub..which you described correctly...you do have to LEARN this kick shape. The non-fit, or the very fit scuba diver, must learn proper kick shapes to use with freedive fins. There is a real coordination to learn, unlike with splits...so in a sense, see freedive fins like snow skis, see splits like a toboggan. One can perform awesomely with some training...the other can be fun if not much is demanded of it.

Now take your big current scenario, a non-fit diver, and soft DiveR freediving fins.....this non-fit diver DID elect to learn the kick shapes, and he or she has no problem whatsoever, going against currents that jet fin divers in his or her group are struggling to beat. He or she just gets as horizontal as possible, and finds an amplitude he can hold for a long time per kick, and the optimal angle to describe each kick with....and the soft fins deliver huge thrust compared to the jets--the long blades drastically exaggerating the propulsion over this long bend period. This is SO easy to show....and I will show this to anyone that visits Palm Beach. And when they got this training...hopefully they also get some good introduction to getting out of the current with belly near the bottom and the skin friction drag issue of the bottom drastically decreasing current speed a few inches off the bottom....and the whole concept of eddying out behind big structures--and using these structures to move up current like a white water paddler uses rocks in the river to help pull him upstream.

Cramps don't happen, because the diver is not actually having to work hard in getting the bend in the fins--it is easy. Now some divers get foot cramps because the arch in their foot is being crushed into a flat sole--and this is easily fixed by adding an orthotic/arch support to the booty, so that your arch is not flattened out. Skiers do this...Rollerbladers do this....Cyclists do this....Divers with this kind of foot issue, should.

 

[ams511]

I just went and measured my Riffe Silent Hunters. 36 inches.
My Moanas are 39 inches.

Austin's Diving Center: Riffe Silent Hunter Freediving Fins, Riffe

The longest tapered high strength plastic fin blade manufactured, offering better spring action and ease while swimming. The only plastic fin blade using flexible side rails, which helps channel water off the tip of the blade and prevent side wobble. These fins develop more forward thrust with less effort. Ankle weights are not necessary for quiet swimming. Foot pocket and blades also sold separately.

 

[danvolker]

Austin's Diving Center: Riffe Silent Hunter Freediving Fins, Riffe

The longest tapered high strength plastic fin blade manufactured, offering better spring action and ease while swimming. The only plastic fin blade using flexible side rails, which helps channel water off the tip of the blade and prevent side wobble. These fins develop more forward thrust with less effort. Ankle weights are not necessary for quiet swimming. Foot pocket and blades also sold separately.

These are nice fins....and keep in mind that composite blades, or carbon blades, are exponentially better in freedive fins....as well as quite a bit more expensive....
The cool thing though, is that even an inexpensive freedive fin like the Cressi LD3000, which can often be bought new for under $100 ---even in plastic, these have the big benefits of freedive fins.....and these Cressi fins could be life changing to a diver used to jets or splits.

Here is a link I just found for the long distance ( meaning SOFT bladed) cress is.... Cressi Gara 3000 LD Fins, Grey at LeisurePro These go for $129--but I have seen the same fins advertised for $75 at times.

 

[ams511]

What I don't know is if it's fair to include "split fins" in the "bad gear" category because it will depend on the fin. Fin comparison tests have shown some models of spilt fins to be faster than regular fins. Although some others were crap.

The consensus seems to be that the Apollo, Atomic, and Scubapro spilt fins are the best of the group.

It has been a while since I read JJ's book but from what I remember splits are not recommended because of potential entanglement and the inability to use certain kicks. I do not remember the book saying they were deficient in propulsion.

 

[mala]

Danvolker.

I'm going to give you 10/10 for your confidence in your fins.

I'm afraid its only 1/10 for your grasp on reality .

 

[ams511]

These are nice fins....and keep in mind that composite blades, or carbon blades, are exponentially better in freedive fins....as well as quite a bit more expensive....
The cool thing though, is that even an inexpensive freedive fin like the Cressi LD3000, which can often be bought new for under $100 ---even in plastic, these have the big benefits of freedive fins.....and these Cressi fins could be life changing to a diver used to jets or splits.

Here is a link I just found for the long distance ( meaning SOFT bladed) cress is.... Cressi Gara 3000 LD Fins, Grey at LeisurePro These go for $129--but I have seen the same fins advertised for $75 at times.

Maybe you are thinking of these: Cressi Gara Professional LD Fins at LeisurePro not a bad deal for $80 including shipping.

Dan you don't need to convince me that Jets are bad, I have a pair and dislike them. I prefer my old Oceanic Ocean Pros but they are falling apart.

 

[danvolker]

The consensus seems to be that the Apollo, Atomic, and Scubapro spilt fins are the best of the group.

It has been a while since I read JJ's book but from what I remember splits are not recommended because of potential entanglement and the inability to use certain kicks. I do not remember the book saying they were deficient in propulsion.

Visit Palm Beach....dive with me at the BHB Marine Park...I will get several models of split fins, also Jets, and DiveR freedive Fins, Mustang C4's....and even Extra Force Fins....all for you to try....I will shoot video....and we can show a real life demo.
An ideal place to run this demo, is under the span of bridge on the East side.....during the incoming tidal current....the water blasts in, and you can position yourself amongst the legs of the bridge--the pilings....which create very cool eddies to hide behind like a white water kayaker....and a scuba diver can hide behind one...then blast through the current to the next one...with only about 20 feet of sprinting to find the next eddy protection....the area is very interesting for the life in it, and it represents a technique that WRECK DIVERS need to use at challenging sites to move around structures out of the current. With the pilings/pillars as close to each other as they are, it should be easy to see and feel major differences between fins. And the video should show this easily. I would love to film this....and anyone else reading this, that would want to do this...chime in here, and let's set this up!!!!


[video=youtube_share;xaidWv0R-bo]http://youtu.be/xaidWv0R-bo[/video]

At around 4:21 into this, if you start here, you can see the area around the east side....and get some of the feel for the places you can be in an out of eddies with. Very repeatable, and fun..
Each of these leg structures can be hidden behind effectively in the tidal change...and on some days this current can be HUGE...often beyond what 90% of the divers can handle.....Perfect for proof of concept

---------- Post added February 21st, 2014 at 01:36 PM ----------

Danvolker.

I'm going to give you 10/10 for your confidence in your fins.

I'm afraid its only 1/10 for your grasp on reality .

As you are about to see.....I am trying to get several members of this forum to participate in a demonstration of all of this.....And I will film it, and share it.
This will be entirely about reality !!!!

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Great Bob....Rec.scuba must never have existed, because the divers YOU are talking to today, were not on rec. scuba in the 90's....

But you claimed that you brought DIR to the recreational world, and then gave some examples of how you did that by posting on rec.scuba. I'm saying that rec.scuba wasn't representative of the recreational world ... not then, not ever. It was a much smaller, more rough and tumble version of what ScubaBoard has eventually become. There were maybe a hundred or so "regulars" posting there ... most of them with egos the size of Florida. Nobody posted there to bring anything to the recreational world ... they posted there mainly to argue with each other.

And of course, Bp/wings are not used by recreational divers....just the way your predecessors would have liked it.

What predecessors were that? I've been diving a BP/W for most of the time I've been diving. They're quite popular where I dive ... among both tech and rec divers.

Surprisingly, there were a lot of people diving in the 90's.....and you know what? There were a lot of divers diving in the 80's too...many of which are not diving today.....Just because YOU are not running in to many of them today, does not mean there were few divers back then.

I said nothing like that. There were plenty of divers back then ... what I said was most of them weren't reading your posts on rec.scuba. I guarantee you there were only a very few who ever heard of you ... even back then. And, given your communication talent, I daresay most of those who did know you weren't much interested in what you had to say.

The first DEMA show that Halcyon unveiled the Bp/wing...I think it was 97 or 98......that year the big BC mfg.'s were all insistent that recreational divers did not need or want bp/wings....They had huge town-sized areas in DEMA, Halcyon had a small 20 by 20 area......and a handful of DIR people in it, helping Carmichael. 10 minutes prior to the Show opening, a huge line had formed.....and the moment the doors opened, there was a line from where you got in, going all the way to Halcyon. The big BC mfg.'s watched in horror, and in shock, as they realized that there really were a lot of recreational divers that were interested in DIR, and in the new idea ( new to the industry and recreational divers) of a bp/wing.

Dear lord ... for a so-called expert, you sure are ignorant of history.

The BP/W has been around since the late '70's. The first one to show up in cave country was developed by a fellow named Greg Flanagan. Dive Rite started manufacturing them commercially during the early '80's ... it's not coincidence that they are generically referred to as "hogarthian" rigs. Even Jablonski credits Main for being the father of the BP/W.

Halcyon was inundated the entire show...they could not copy the brochures fast enough. Everything changed that year. The bell rang. DIR had become a force that marketers would pay attention to ( which you would see evidenced by the copying of the big brands in the coming years)....and DIR would drive a market that would ask for real instruction, and this pregnancy gave birth to GUE. A very large part of the DIR world, is only going to be recreational--not tech or cave.

What GUE did ... and what Halcyon capitalized on ... was standardizing a system that combined equipment and process. Effectively, they built on cave diving principles initially developed by Exley, Main, and others who came before them, and sold it as a package. It was a huge step ... comparable in its marketing genius to what PADI had done at the recreational level. But it was by no means an invention. By the time they introduced their product line in 1997, the BP/W had been around for nearly two decades.

If you think you are hurting my feelings by suggesting that most of the recreational world does not know what DIR is.....sorry, this is no insult, and it is not offensive.

It's also not what I said ... I said most of the recreational world doesn't know who YOU are. You may find this hard to believe, Dan ... but YOU and DIR are not the same thing. Frankly, the DIR folks I know mostly just wish you'd shut up ... because your approach gives the whole movement a bad odor. Most of the DIR people I know work very hard to be inclusive, non-judgmental, and set a good example to the DIR-curious in the recreational dive community. Your approach just works against them, because it turns people off, makes them associate DIR with you, and therefore tends to make them wary of getting involved with people like that.

There is a very large chunk that does, and that knows bp/wings are quite different from sloppy BC's. I see this every time I go on charter boats in different places. But you are welcome to your own interpretation of the world that you believe you live in..... I'm just glad I don't live there !

Yes, we live in very different worlds. In my world, people of different diving approaches get along. And frankly, I prefer it that way ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[mdb]

Even though we have disagreed from time to time, I have always enjoyed reading your posts. You are an active diver and instructor and you post comments that inform us.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Actually, I think rec. scuba had many more people actually reading and posting than scuba board.....Scubaboard boasts this huge 200,000 plus audience, but only a handful ever post anything. For someone like yourself....or your moderator buddies, it is nicely self serving to convince yourself that Scubaboard is larger than the rec. scuba newsgroup was.....One key difference, is the ability to control discussions with your cronies that are moderators.....I can see you take great advantage of this....of being politically valuable to them, and gaining reciprocal favors in how they moderate threads you care about....at least rec. scuba never had this level of corruption.

... that's the kind of nonsense that costs you your credibility. I have no influence at all on moderator actions on ScubaBoard. From time to time I will object to something they do, and when that happens I make my feelings known. In this particular case, they simply had the same view of the inappropriateness of your posts as I and several others involved in the conversation had.

I lurked on rec.scuba back when I first started diving ... a more apt comparison would be The Deco Stop, at least as it existed a few years ago when it was dominated by a handful of egotists who spent all their time shouting down each other. I wouldn't call either a place of interest for the typical recreational diver. The rec.scuba forum never had the credibility, appeal nor value that ScubaBoard does for the recreational diving community. I could not ... ever ... see myself wanting to jump into that mess.

The cave community in the mid 90's could not get backplates to be made the way they wanted them made....most of the big BC mfg.'s, had no interest whatever, in what the WKPP was asking for, when JJ and George made requests for a specific design in backplates. This was also a time when plenty of cave divers were actually stealing stop signs, slotting them, and making them into backplates. The WKPP community, and MANY others in cave and tech, DID NOT LIKE the DiveRite designs. They demanded something better....Carmichael was the only one to set up, and design and manufacture what was asked for....

I think you mean to say the DIR community ... not the cave community. The DIR community was, and continues to be, a small part of the overall cave diving community.

But what you said earlier ... and I'll quote you here ... is that "The first DEMA show that Halcyon unveiled the Bp/wing...I think it was 97 or 98......that year the big BC mfg.'s were all insistent that recreational divers did not need or want bp/wings". Halcyon didn't "unveil" the BP/wing ... it had been unveiled 17 years earlier. What Halcyon "unveiled" was their product offering, which was more compliant with the system they defined as "Doing It Right". In reality, it was nothing more than taking someone else's idea and modifying it to make it more appealing to a very specific set of potential buyers.

Let's be honest here ... if the whole dive community demanded a given product, the manufacturers would have been tripping over themselves to provide it for them. The reason the big manufacturers weren't interested is that they simply didn't see a big enough return in sales to make the investment worth their while. You might argue with their business decision, but to state or imply that Halcyon created the BP/W is absurd, and a complete revision of history.

It is also clear, from all the copying of the Halcyon line, that this WAS what was widely desired, and not what had been available as you suggest, since the late 70's...Wow....shocking how you can fabricate like this and believe you are telling truths. Think about what divers showed they wanted, not about the junk that was made available to them before Halcyon.

Actually what happened is that some manufacturers ... Oxycheq, DSS, Dive Rite, OMS and others ... decided to offer a product that was similar, somewhat different, and generally lower priced than the Halcyon product because it appealed to a broader market. While some of those systems are "DIR compatible", many are not. The DR TransPlate, for example, is a serviceable BP/W ... my primary diving partner and former wife has been using one for a decade and loves it. It is not, however, DIR compliant.

Perhaps it's different in Florida ... and I'm sure it is in the circles you dive with ... but it'd be interesting to know who sells the most BP/W systems worldwide ... Halcyon or Dive Rite. I'm thinking DR does.

"Birds of a feather , flock together"...comes to mind.....the folks you hang around with, must be something like you are Bob. To me, you AND your friends, have a bad odor.
I am certainly not going to worry myself over what a pontificating and self important instructor like yourself thinks...or what his friends think.

With respect to their diving choices, many of my friends are more like you than me. With respect to attitude, if they were anything like you they wouldn't be my friends.

I will get some demos together, film the proof, and then watch you change your tune a year from now, and say this was always the way of things.

By all means ... I'll be the first to admit there's a great deal about scuba diving I don't know yet ... and I'm always willing to listen and learn. If you can put something together that makes me look at diving differently, you'll be among the first to know.

But then nothing about this conversation really has to do with diving ... it's all about attitude. And to my concern, attitude is at least as important to the well-grounded diver as good skills and proper equipment selection ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)