Four dead in Italian cave

[PfcAJ]

No GPS?

lol, just sit there patiently waiting for the unit to "acquire satellites".

 

[boulderjohn]

Sad story.
I am OW only, but I'm curious as to what the experienced cave divers do in a Zero Viz situation with no guide line? My guess is reciprocal compass headings?

PfcAJ's response is correct, but it may have skipped a step you don't realize. One of the key rules of cave diving is that you do not dive without a continuous guideline to the surface. In zero visibility, there is a guideline, but you may not be able to see it. One of the things you learn in your training is the process for finding a lost guideline.

 

[cascas]

Sad story.
I am OW only, but I'm curious as to what the experienced cave divers do in a Zero Viz situation with no guide line? My guess is reciprocal compass headings?

Zero vis would mean that a compass is also not visible. While light failure is a possibility, the 2 backup lights per diver make that a problem that is really easy to deal with. 6 light failing is Murphy at his best and not very likely to happen. A silt-out is more realistic, allthough a whole cave silt-out is not very likely either. Experienced cavedivers make mental notes of where the line is meaning that if zero vis suddenly happens the line is within hand reach. If that too fails, there is a lost line procedure which involves first stabliizing your position ( ie holding on to something ) then tying off your safety spool in two places ( for reference) and start looking for the main line.
This is roughly what cavedivers do, there is more, but this is not a class .

Untrained divers imho should not go into caves, not even with a guide/instructor unless it involves a cave course. Caverns maybe, if they are suitable, not all caverns are suitable for untrained divers.

Never turn off common sense just because the guy in front of you is an instructor. Instructors are no more than divers who have been trained to train divers. That does not make them cave divers, or allround divers for that matter. Don't be afraid to question your guide if you are about to follow him/her where you haven't been before.... If he/she is offended, you might have the answer you were looking for...

 

[boulderjohn]

Sad story.
I am OW only, but I'm curious as to what the experienced cave divers do in a Zero Viz situation with no guide line? My guess is reciprocal compass headings?

One thing that should be emphasized is that the real meat of cave training is making sure you don't have a zero viz situation. You learn extreme buoyancy control. You learn to use kicks that do not stir up even the finest silt on the bottom. You learn to turn 360° in place without stirring up that fine silt. Untrained divers create visibility obscuring silt outs when they take their basic open water diving techniques with them into the caves.

 

[JamesK]

Sad story.
I am OW only, but I'm curious as to what the experienced cave divers do in a Zero Viz situation with no guide line? My guess is reciprocal compass headings?

Another thing in regards to the compass. As said, in zero vis, you can't see the compass, and even if you can make it out, you might have made many turns and been down many side passages where knowing the general compass heading to where the exit should be could get you even more lost. Caves are not usually one straight line tunnel. You could have come in heading at 360*, traveled 100ft and turned 300*, gone another 200 feet and then turned at a 180*, and on an on an on. If you went back thinking oh, 180* is good you could end up deeper in the system. I hope that makes sense as I tried to simplify it.

No GPS?

lol, just sit there patiently waiting for the unit to "acquire satellites".

So all that time I spent covering my TomTom is clear silicone caulk was wasted?

 

[PfcAJ]

It does pay to know the general direction of the cave, however. Knowing the survey and which way is what can be very beneficial, esp in big conduit cave where its easy to lose the line even in good vis.

 

[JamesK]

It does pay to know the general direction of the cave, however. Knowing the survey and which way is what can be very beneficial, esp in big conduit cave where its easy to lose the line even in good vis.

Yes it does. That is why I still carry a compass. I was just trying to point out that it is more complex than a simple back azimuth.

 

[Qnape]

It seems to me as a consumer of dive travel / dive guide services that the real problem is in the customers (including those poor souls lost in Italy) determining the proper amount of trust to place in the safety of the services offered / dives proposed by the shop they choose to dive with. I am sure if one could ask each of the lost divers they would likely agree that they chose to do this dive after carefully selecting the operator, who has been conducting the dives safely for years. "After all, they do this safely in the Cenotes of Mexico - and many cave divers say that is safe", they might reason. Some of them may even have completed dives in the cenotes, and expected the same in Italy. And even the most cautions of dive travel consumers do place trust in the dive guides - this is of course why they are hired in the first place, and wisely so. Every OW diver is taught to seek local advice or a guide in unfamiliar waters. This becomes a slippery slope. Mostly, OW dive travelers wll not be aware of the specific safety measures used to help make OW cenote tours safe(r) (permanent guideline in the cavern zone, maximum guide/OW diver ratio, etc.) and will not ensure that the same measures are being used in Italy, the Dominican Republic, or wherever. How is the average OW traveling diver to know?

"Just say no"? Don't do "trust-me dives"? Sounds great, and it's obvious taught to every diver (I sure hope!), but pattern and practice trump the rules every time. Every dive by a traveling OW diver is at least to some degree a trust-me dive. After all, most will not be traveling to the same place year after year but to new destinations most of the time, where a local guide is hired for their familiarity with local conditions - including where to dive, and in what conditions.

Some will be more cautious - including many of us who read and comment on boards like this, and will get the training for whatever type of diving they want to do first. But many will not, as long as they can hire a guide who has been doing X dive for Y years with no problems. They will even think they are following their training by hiring that guide. As long as local guides continue to offer poorly planned dives (massive understatement, I know), there will be divers taking them up on it, and resultant tragedies.

 

[chachita]

Couldn't agree more. As I was reading through the thread I was thinking much of what you have articulated. As a novice diver you don't have the skills or experience to assess whether your dive guide's recommendations are sound or whether you are being led into a dangerous situation and all your dives are trust me dives.

I am now preparing for a trip to the South China Sea and I'm buying safety equipment that will help in the event I get pushed off-course due to the strong currents. The people on the live aboard I booked with haven't mentioned the strong local currents or suggested I bring extra equipment. If I hadn't read about these situations here on ScubaBoard I'd be heading out with just my basic scuba equipment, trusting everything to be OK and thinking the boat crew would have adviced if it wasn't...

It seems to me as a consumer of dive travel / dive guide services that the real problem is in the customers (including those poor souls lost in Italy) determining the proper amount of trust to place in the safety of the services offered / dives proposed by the shop they choose to dive with. I am sure if one could ask each of the lost divers they would likely agree that they chose to do this dive after carefully selecting the operator, who has been conducting the dives safely for years. "After all, they do this safely in the Cenotes of Mexico - and many cave divers say that is safe", they might reason. Some of them may even have completed dives in the cenotes, and expected the same in Italy. And even the most cautions of dive travel consumers do place trust in the dive guides - this is of course why they are hired in the first place, and wisely so. Every OW diver is taught to seek local advice or a guide in unfamiliar waters. This becomes a slippery slope. Mostly, OW dive travelers wll not be aware of the specific safety measures used to help make OW cenote tours safe(r) (permanent guideline in the cavern zone, maximum guide/OW diver ratio, etc.) and will not ensure that the same measures are being used in Italy, the Dominican Republic, or wherever. How is the average OW traveling diver to know?

"Just say no"? Don't do "trust-me dives"? Sounds great, and it's obvious taught to every diver (I sure hope!), but pattern and practice trump the rules every time. Every dive by a traveling OW diver is at least to some degree a trust-me dive. After all, most will not be traveling to the same place year after year but to new destinations most of the time, where a local guide is hired for their familiarity with local conditions - including where to dive, and in what conditions.

Some will be more cautious - including many of us who read and comment on boards like this, and will get the training for whatever type of diving they want to do first. But many will not, as long as they can hire a guide who has been doing X dive for Y years with no problems. They will even think they are following their training by hiring that guide. As long as local guides continue to offer poorly planned dives (massive understatement, I know), there will be divers taking them up on it, and resultant tragedies.

 

[DiveTheGalapagos]

Italy: Four scuba divers drown in 'Blood Grotto' panic - CNN.com