Forum behavior: Split from "Newly Certified Diver OOA at Gilboa"

[NZarathustra]

If we use constructive rather than destructive tones in our posts, more people will read (AND LEARN which is what this is all about - learning from our mistakes and experiences) and fewer events will get out of control like this one has.

Yes, but that might take actual effort and an awareness of others, as well as some critical thinking, and if you expected people to do that, then, lawsy me, their freedom of expression will be repressed and they'll whine and whinge about it incessantly in Surface Interval.

Besides, why would they bother with that when, after offending people, they can then spend time responding with a post that amounts to nothing more than ego... um, stroking?

I know that, were there bans handed out for basic rudeness, there'd be three people as members here, and Sundays would be dead... but it would really be nice if we would self-police once in a while, and remember that we're (god, I can't believe I'm saying this) multi-cultural, and that stuff that flies here in the US is completely unacceptable, manners-wise, in other countries.

I guess it would also be nice if I had a solid gold toilet.

In other words... I completely agree with your post. But, based on past experience, I think it may be too much to hope for.

 

[TSandM]

I think, in the vast majority of cases, it is possible to be quite critical of the information someone has offered, or the decisions they report having made, without being abrupt or unpleasant. Sometimes people see ANY criticism as hurtful, though, and sometimes phrasing doesn't come across to the reader the way it sounded in the writer's head.

On a few occasions, I have seen a poster adamant in his opinion, despite multiple cautionary posts from people who know what they are doing. In these cases, I have very rarely been quite blunt, in the hopes that an abrupt, perhaps a bit abrasive approach may convey the urgency of my disagreement.

In the case of the DM thread that occasioned fisher's departure, I have certainly seen other people (including me!) get lambasted just as hard, and bounce back from it. If you're going to participate in internet forums, I think you just have to be a bit thick-skinned at times.

 

[300bar]

I know that, were there bans handed out for basic rudeness,....

Guess again.cause we will if need be.
You can push the ToS just so much.
Read it, learn it and use it.

 

[ScubaSteve]

I think, in the vast majority of cases, it is possible to be quite critical of the information someone has offered, or the decisions they report having made, without being abrupt or unpleasant. ....................If you're going to participate in internet forums, I think you just have to be a bit thick-skinned at times.

TSandM I cannot disagree with you at all. I can only restate what I said in my earlier posts. I agree that abrupt is sometimes the only way but I also believe that it is also a starting point for many. We MUST be able to accept criticism when offered and to be able to learn from that criticism. I simply think people should consider starting with constructive rather than destructive. It does not always take....so then we bring on the abrupt. That is all I was trying to get accross. This is a great place to learn and debate but when a post gets too combative all hope of learning goes out the window and it becomes an ineffective tool.

..............Since this is a dangerous sport, every single one of us MUST, absolutely MUST be able to take properly delivered criticism and turn it into a positive learning experience to correct something..............We all need to step away from a post when our emotions get in the way. I think the threads would be better received and people would learn even more from them if we could do this. ...........

...................If we use constructive rather than destructive tones in our posts, more people will read (AND LEARN which is what this is all about - learning from our mistakes and experiences) and fewer events will get out of control like this one has..................

 

[vladimir]

I believe that when someone is attacked because of their language, and "judged" because of their grammar and punctuation then that's unfair when English is NOT their first language. And when their professional competence is also called into question, than that becomes absolutely untenable. I am tired of the argumentative tones of people's replies to some topics; if that's the way you want to be, go right ahead, but it's not for me or for some other people who prefer civilised debate instead of personal attack. When anyone is hounded off here, especially someone who has much to offer in the way of experience and information, then that IS a cause for concern, at least it is for me. No wonder people are reluctant to share their experiences if all they get in return is a form of bullying and abuse. But, if that's the way you all want it, fine, go right ahead. I, for one, won't be taking any further part in this board, no doubt to your immense relief.

This is at least partly directed at me. I stand by my posts. I did not "attack" Doctor Fisher. I conveyed my opinion in a respectful tone and I believe it is valid. Please reread my posts and note that I restricted my criticism to "medical opinions" and that I "partly judged" posts by their grammar and spelling. Please also note that I expressed my appreciation for Doctor Fisher's contribution here--that was sincere. I did not know that English was not his first language, but I'm not sure it matters. I have on occasion chastised people for nitpicking on grammar, especially of foreign posters. But in the case of medical opinions on an English forum, I think precision is important. Lastly, please note that Doctor Fisher conceded his appreciation for DocVikingo correcting the mistakes in his posts of medical opinions. Of course doctors are human, but every effort should be made to have medical opinions on a public forum be correct at the outset. As I said earlier, I am sincerely sorry to see Doctor Fisher leave the ScubaBoard.

 

[TSandM]

Vladimir, I pretty much agree with you.

When I am posting in the General Scuba, or other diving subforums, I figure I'm a diver like any other diver, and my posts don't really have to be of any better quality than anybody else's -- In other words, I can report my personal experiences or opinions, without having to reference them or support them or do any extensive editing.

When I post in the Diving Medicine forum, I am posting from my professional persona. There, my advice had better be accurate and well-researched, or come from my own professional training. I think it's incumbent upon me to phrase it well and edit it for spelling and grammar, and to provide references where possible. Doc Vikingo is a superb role model for me in that; his posts are ALWAYS sound, and almost always referenced.

Dr. Fisher got criticized for not meeting that standard. I think it was probably merited. I think medical folk in a medical forum need to meet a higher standard of posts.

 

[ucfdiver]

I think in the tech diving subforums on here, you've got to expect some "harsh" debate. For instance, in this thread-
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/hogarthian-diving/244108-doubles-weight-dry.html

Nereas attacks a diver for doing things dangerously, then refuses to explain why. Had this been in basic scuba, I would have corrected him immediately, but I believe that the tech diving forums need to allow some heated debate for all of us to learn and ponder on why we do things the way we do them, which is what I had hoped would happen here, but things didn't turn out that way, as Nereas avoided the question. I'm sure he saw my posts as flaming, when they were really trying to spark a productive conversation.

 

[HowardE]

Fisherdvm returns - http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/diving-medicine/244179-innovative-wound-care.html

---

I personally read the thread in question from the beginning. IMO the OP posted a story. Gave his opinions on what happened. Other more experienced people explained the why's and analyzed the situation, and then the OP tried to defend his actions, and got upset (apparently - but maybe not really?)

I didn't see anything particularly out of line in that thread.

For the most part... SB is a friendly place, where people can exchange ideas. There will always be debate on some (maybe even most) things related to SCUBA, as there isn't an EXACT science behind everything. There's theories, and thus there will be debate. How decompression effects the body is a theory. There are some LAWS of science behind the theories, but at the end of the day... people can still get bent on a dive while diving within the "limits" right?

Like others have said... You need to be a little thick skinned to post on the internet period, especially when you purport yourself to be an expert. Many things can't be expressed in type that can be expressed in words.

Bottom line - SB is a mostly friendly place, and the staff and members try to keep it that way. I don't think that there's a problem with our system. I've seen other forums with many many less members, and it's not at civil. Out of 102,500 members... there will be those who don't always get along.

 

[dave4868]

I think in the tech diving subforums on here, you've got to expect some "harsh" debate. For instance, in this thread-
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/hogarthian-diving/244108-doubles-weight-dry.html

Snipped your recounting of a personal conflict....

I just took a look at the first page of that thread; yep, you're right, that's the pattern of ad hominem attack and defensiveness that often occurs, and maybe it's come to be expected or even acceptable. Some may even find it stimulating and constructive and necessary.

I don't.

There are more efficient and constructive ways to share good info, but they generally require more effort and less ego....

I thought most of the posts in the "OOA at Gilboa" thread were constructively blunt and dealt with the issues, not the personalities. Unfortunately, defensiveness resulted because some of the positions were so untenable.

What else could one do? How about take a step back and offer to reconsider one's position. That might have been reasonable given the clarity and logic of the feedback.

Humbleness can save one quite a bit of embarrassment.

That's just my humble opinion, but, then again, I could be wrong. I'm all ears....

Dave C

 

[24940]

TBut in the case of medical opinions on an English forum, I think precision is important. Lastly, please note that Doctor Fisher conceded his appreciation for DocVikingo correcting the mistakes in his posts of medical opinions. Of course doctors are human, but every effort should be made to have medical opinions on a public forum be correct at the outset. As I said earlier, I am sincerely sorry to see Doctor Fisher leave the ScubaBoard.

When I post in the Diving Medicine forum, I am posting from my professional persona. There, my advice had better be accurate and well-researched, or come from my own professional training. I think it's incumbent upon me to phrase it well and edit it for spelling and grammar, and to provide references where possible. Doc Vikingo is a superb role model for me in that; his posts are ALWAYS sound, and almost always referenced.

Dr. Fisher got criticized for not meeting that standard. I think it was probably merited. I think medical folk in a medical forum need to meet a higher standard of posts.

I've been operating under the assumption Doc is a veterinarian. If that's the case, would it change your opinion of his professional obligation as a poster in medical forums?

I haven't seen his posts in the medical forums, but had always assumed the dvm in fisherdvm indicated he was a Doctor of Veterinary Medicine. Wouldn't be the first time I've assumed wrongly.