For anyone considering doing their first night dive

[Zef]

I think this type of response isn’t a general response, it’s specifically for this OP, who has been doing this over and over repeatedly, and refuses to have any discourse regarding it.

What makes you think you are entitled to any discourse with the OP about anything?

Perhaps his lack of comments and engagement are a sign of maturity and an indication that if you don’t like his content you can just click on by or create and post your own content.

Did you see his SMB videos? It’s so bad that it could cause serious problems for new divers. And dispute people repeatedly commenting on this, he doesn’t stop.

So what? Who made you the messiah of new divers to protect them from advice and content you don’t agree with?

Here is my story with the OP:
I have offered feedback privately on Chris’ videos in the past and had decent discussion with him via DM.

Then, this past spring I moved back to the US after 12 year overseas…in September I found myself entertaining a job offer with a company in Houston Texas. Chris was the only person I even remotely knew in Houston and we had never met or spoken to each other. Without hesitation he and his wife invited me to join them to dive during my first few weekends in Texas. They generously provided me gear. I was able to witness them working with students and they are quite demanding in their expectations.

Chris and his wife have been in the dive industry for quite a number of years. They outfit, teach, and also lead dive vacations around the world. Just because someone in their video was touching the bottom does not mean it was the OP, it could have been a novice diver along on that trip with them where the video footage was shot.

He is certainly not using the videos to pander their shop.

Are Chris’ videos the greatest? That is based on opinion.

Is his personality, especially in the videos a bit dry? Perhaps, after all he is an engineer and that dry analytical persona is quite commmon.

Is what he demonstrates and discusses dangerous? I don’t think so. There may be other or even better techniques, if you think the latter then slap your own content up on the board.

If you don’t like a post just move on….no need to get all rude and Karen-like about. Just simply move on… you can even block him in your profile settings so you don’t come across his content as easily…

…but for gods sake just leave the guy alone. Chris is a genuinely nice guy and a rather educated, experienced, and good diver. While not all his content appeals to me, I appreciate his efforts and his presence in the greater diving community.

-Z

 

[The Cosmicist]

If he doesn’t take criticism, what is the point of the abusive posts? If he is advocating dangerous / unsafe dive practices ask a mod to remove the post. One the people saying he deserves the abuse has been diving less than a year With less than two dozen dives. How many of those were night dives? Is he really qualified to participate in a dog pile? The next time he sees something sloppy or wrong or he doesn’t agree with is he going to troll the poster? Is this the direction ScubaBoard should head in?

I missed a bunch of his videos because I didn’t find them something worth commenting on. I saw this video on YouTube a few days ago, watched it and moved on. I wasn’t going to comment on it here because that only pops it back to the top of the forum.

God, which one of us is criticizing and trolling? So, because I have less dives than you, I'm somehow not qualified to identify good and bad practices? Also, do you blindly trust that that dive count is accurate? How many assumptions are you going to make about someone you don't know? Like @Aura said, anyone can identify that behavior as poor. (Also, no one seems to have understood that my reference to coral was a hypothetical). Two negative posts, one right after the other, is not trolling. I'm not going to bother addressing your other post, but I suggest you read up on logical fallacies.

Look, I've done more complicated things at night than 99% of people have done during the day. A night dive isn't complicated, there's just less light. Poor behavior by an instructor leads to poor behavior by divers. If no one says anything, this behavior proliferates. People don't leave the sport because of Scubaboard's opinions. That's giving us all way too much credit. They leave because of lack of resources, no access good diving areas, money, poor instructors, or other reasons... Maybe the fact that the industry has no universal standards like every other sport.

I'm not going to address you again because it will only fuel your fire, and because there are people on the thread who are trying to talk directly about night diving, so I'll of course let that take center stage. I gave my opinion on what I thought was poor behavior by an instructor, and I stand by it. If you don't like it, you can also pass by it and choose not to comment. I'll give you the last word if you choose to reply. I can live with that... It's just a forum. What I can't live with is watching bad instruction and what it produces. I've experienced this first hand, as I'm sure many other people have. I've had terrible scuba instructors. When you go to an "advanced" dive, and are at 90 ft next to a wreck and your instabuddy is standing in the sand looking at his SPG... Who taught him that was ok?

 

[Zef]

Who taught him that was ok?

Where is the militant notion that it is not ok to touch the bottom codified?

I don’t necessarily condone the practice or dive that way, but let’s be real about things…the very nature of our presence underwater can be viewed as damaging to the environment…however one slices it, we dive for personal gain…there is nothing inherently altruistic about SCUBA.

Dive how you choose to dive and leave others to dive as they choose. If you want change, be the example…but being preachy and judgemental is more of a turnoff, even to those of us who have more than a few dives under our weight belts.

-Z

 

[The Cosmicist]

One the people saying he deserves the abuse has been diving less than a year With less than two dozen dives. How many of those were night dives?

Hopefully this wasn't about me, because I never said he deserved abuse. Also, what's the definition of abuse...

Where is the militant notion that it is not ok to touch the bottom codified?

I don’t necessarily condone the practice or dive that way, but let’s be real about things…the very nature of our presence underwater can be viewed as damaging to the environment…however one slices it, we dive for personal gain…there is nothing inherently altruistic about SCUBA.

Dive how you choose to dive and leave others to dive as they choose. If you want change, be the example…but being preachy and judgemental is more of a turnoff, even to those of us who have more than a few dives under our weight belts.

-Z

Regarding touching the bottom, that would be an interesting (separate) discussion. I'd also like to see some research about how "the very nature of our presence" is damaging to the environment. Where is that codified? That argument could be taken very far. If you want to start another thread about that, please invite me!

However, since you quoted me here I will reply and then leave it alone.

I’m being preachy and judgmental? Then why are you preaching to me and judging me for the amount of dives I have and my opinion? Is there a certain amount of dives I need in order to post in the Basic Forum? When can I be a real boy? I don’t know why you are hung up on that. Does it make me easier to single out? I’m not the only one who expressed distaste with his video.

More importantly, let’s agree to disagree. I think it matters how we act and how we portray those acts - below and above water. If our very presence is damaging, then how is it somehow ok to touch the bottom, blind wildlife, and not be careful? Not logical. If you’re fine with low standards and “dive/live and let dive/live”, I think you’re wrong but I respect your opinion. Let's leave it at that, yeah?

I’ll tell you the same thing I told CT Rich. You can have the last word if you want to reply, that’s fine with me. I addressed your quote of me and that’s enough. I don’t care to visit this thread again unless, for some reason, someone thinks it’s acceptable to resort to ad hominem, etc. and/or address me directly.


NOW...

I think it’s a better use of everyone’s time to get back to the topic at hand, which is DiveZoneScuba’s video and night diving. Can we return the conversation to that?

 

[Ana]

What I could say to anyone considering their first night dive is to dive the site during the day if possible.

Then for the night dive get a couple of small lights, secure them in pockets or to the wrist with a lanyard.
Don't turn the lights on unless you have an emergency. Just don't. Your eyes will adjust and you will see fine.
If you need artificial illumination to end up with daylight conditions, why bother going at night?

I reported the OP but I guess the mods didn't think it was offensive enough to remove that stupid video, I couldn't pass the first minute watching all the bright lights harassing creatures.

I understand the need for stadium lights when people go into caves and maybe other holes in the ground, but in the Ocean? GTFOH!
Maybe go on a full moon for the first night dive to get things a bit brighter but the minute you turn on a light, your pupils react to that and will take longer to regain the night vision. It isn't like you'll be reading a book during the night dive, why have bright lights?

Another option could be to go right before sunset, so that you get in the water with enough illumination to settle in, and as the day turns into night your eyes will naturally adapt and you'll see what I refer to "the changing of the guard" the day creatures go away and the night ones come to play.

If you need to look for tiny creatures in crevices, go in the day. A night dive in the ocean is to marvel on the beauty of the creatures active at night, not to bother the sleeping ones. To experience bioluminescence, not to see the same you see during the day.

I don't know what to say to photographers but introducing all that light pollution is BS.

 

[undrwater]

Don't turn the lights on unless you have an emergency. Just don't. Your eyes will adjust and you will see fine.
If you need artificial illumination to end up with daylight conditions, why bother going at night?

I think most people dive at night to see the creatures that come out at night. When I dive at night alone, I do as you say. I bring my lights with me, but often turn them or leave them off. If I dive with buddy (ies), I will bring my lights and leave them on so my buddy(ies) will know where I am.

I can say, though, that you cannot see "just fine" in all environments or times. Sometimes we use lights to safely get to and from the water.

 

[OTF]

Lights have become incredibly powerful in the last few years. I remember when I got an early 800-lumen HID light and buddies complained it was way too bright. Now 4000+ lumen handhelds are common (although optically there is a diminishing return blah blah blah). I've done plenty of enjoyable night dives with sub-500 lumen lights - often nothing except the TINY aaa-powered focus lights on my camera. Don't be afraid to use less light. Fish's eyes are sensitive.

In case anyone stumbles across this dumpsterfire looking for actual night diving tips here are a few. I do a lot of low-vis night diving.

• Night diving can be super awesome, here in the northeast USA most life is nocturnal so you see a LOT more life at night. You also see totally different vivid colors at night without the bluegreen daylight washing everything out from above. Yeah it can be scarier in the beginner so take it easy and maybe do some night snorkeling first. But it becomes natural. Being underwater at night is my favorite kind of diving and my most peaceful happy place.
• Turn lights down to lower settings / use less light when possible. Saves battery and reduces injury to marine creatures eyes. Keep the direct bright center part of your lights out of the sea creatures eyes. Sometimes it's even nice to turn lights off completely to check for bioluminescence in the water or look at the stars from the surface.
• Ditto what @Ana said, it's good to dive the site in the day first if possible.
• Bring backup lights. I like to bring a primary + 2 backups. "Two is one one is none" is a cave diving thing that sounds like overkill but I can't tell you how many simple recreational night dives have ended up using all three lights because a buddy forgot theirs and needed a loaner, lights ran out of battery, flooded, we needed to use one as a place marker, etc. I like to always keep one small "single 18650" type backup light clipped to a chest D-ring and bungeed to the webbing DIR-style. It stays there totally out of the way even on day dives for looking under rocks.

• If using a flag think carefully about how to illuminate it, sometimes a flasher will actually attract boats rather than repel them.
• A light marking your exit point can be really helpful at confusing or new sites.
• Learn some basic light signaling (circle for "ok", horizontal back and forth for "problem/urgent attention", up and down for "non problem attention". If using hand signals think about how to illuminate them without blinding your buddy.
• Goodman handles are great. Use one. Way better than holding a light in your hand. I especially like the soft goodmans made of sturdy nylon. DiveRite makes a nice one but it's pricey. You can get a similar cheap version online without DR's fancy clip system and figure out how to mount your light to it.
• Get used to clipping your lights off to your harness while you do things with your hands so you don't blind people swinging the beam around. Ideally you'll figure out a way to clip your light so it hangs pointing in a useful direction without spinning everywhere.
• I really like Nanight's handheld primary lights. Similar price and specs to DiveRite's or the (chinese-made) Big Blue, but better build quality and made in Sweden by an awesome small company.

 

[dmaziuk]

Sometimes it's too dark to "just see". I prefer the red light but sometimes you need the white one. And then there's e.g. Bonaire's tarpons who use your light to hunt, that's fun.

 

[waterone]

Then for the night dive get a couple of small lights, secure them in pockets or to the wrist with a lanyard.
Don't turn the lights on unless you have an emergency. Just don't. Your eyes will adjust and you will see fine.
If you need artificial illumination to end up with daylight conditions, why bother going at night?
I reported the OP but I guess the mods didn't think it was offensive enough to remove that stupid video, I couldn't pass the first minute watching all the bright lights harassing creatures.

I have been on many night dives where it is absolutely pitch black. On these dives your eyes will never adjust. Sure, there are also night dives when the moon is out, the water is clear enough and you can see a silhouette of someone off in the distance or if the moon is bright enough to see features on a face. Those types of dives are amazing but so are the dives with light.

I reported the OP but I guess the mods didn't think it was offensive enough to remove that stupid video, I couldn't pass the first minute watching all the bright lights harassing creatures.

I personally do not think the video is worthy of reporting. As far as harassment I can't help but think of the countless aquariums around the world where people turn on and off lights in their homes. Do you recall when disco tanks were a fad?

Sure, lights don't have to be pointed directly at the animals heads, nor do we need a 20000 lumen dive light to get by. Though some animals in and out of water will still get lights occasionally put in their faces and will recover.

If you need to look for tiny creatures in crevices, go in the day. A night dive in the ocean is to marvel on the beauty of the creatures active at night, not to bother the sleeping ones. To experience bioluminescence, not to see the same you see during the day.

A night dive is for what we want of it, if you are happy going lightless that's wonderful and I hope you enjoy countless amazing and unlit dives. I know that night dives are by far my favorite dives, and I have enjoyed many dives with lights and without and I know I will enjoy many more.

I don't know what to say to photographers but introducing all that light pollution is BS.

Some take insanely beautiful pictures and when the light goes away the animals go about their lives and usually don't end up in someone's pot or on the grill.

 

[CT-Rich]

Where I dive in the NE US, visibility is always spotty at best and there really is not much to see without lights at night. there are plenty of animals that are only found at night, like squid octopus, eels, free swimming worms, dog fish etc. The flip side of having a light is that some animals will take advantage and use lights to hunt. I have seen squid grab fish that were in the path of the light. If you take a laser pointer in the water, lobsters will chase them.

As for touching the reef, it is a problem with the diver, not the time of the day. I expect a lightless diver will have more trouble with spatial awareness in the dark and maybe even more prone to damaging the reef. But I have seen many divers rototilling the bottom, so the diver in the video is, unfortunately, not the lone offender.

I have a disturbingly broad selection of dive lights from a 5000 lumen light cannon suitable for suppressing prison riots, a couple of wide angle video lights and lamps as week as 250 lumen and even a pen light.

several of my all time favorite dives occurred at night and would have been impossible without lights. If you are with a group, tank dongles are a great way to keep track of your friend without having to shine a light in their direction.