Florida Atty Gen.: Miami guy sells fake course, PADI cards

[flots am]

In any case, you have not answered the key question: why would a professional decide to steal others' property when this is available to the same professional?

Money?

 

[kafkaland]

Ok, let me speculate a bit as to motivation:

A presumably experienced diver, who at least thinks he can teach, owns a dive shop. For some reason he thinks he would be better off starting his own certifying agency, be it because he thinks he can do better than the established ones, or be it for the money, or maybe they ticked him off about something. So he starts issuing his own cards, under his own label.

But he doesn't have the wherewithal to start a new, widely recognized certifying agency. That takes a whole lot more of entrepreneurial organizational, and marketng skills, money, connections, etc. than just running a dive shop. Think starting a car company versus owning a dealership.

So soon the problems start to mount: previous students run into problems having their cert cards recognized, and new students insist on PADI - after all, PADI marketing has done a very good job convincing everyone that they are the one and only agency that counts.

So he crumples like that object on the deep training dive, and he starts printing fake PADI cards. After all, in his mind, his cards aren't any worse than the PADI cards, they just lack the label.

A plausible scenario?

 

[demed]

Ok, let me speculate a bit as to motivation:

A presumably experienced diver, who at least thinks he can teach, owns a dive shop. For some reason he thinks he would be better off starting his own certifying agency, be it because he thinks he can do better than the established ones, or be it for the money, or maybe they ticked him off about something. So he starts issuing his own cards, under his own label.

But he doesn't have the wherewithal to start a new, widely recognized certifying agency. That takes a whole lot more of entrepreneurial organizational, and marketng skills, money, connections, etc. than just running a dive shop. Think starting a car company versus owning a dealership.

So soon the problems start to mount: previous students run into problems having their cert cards recognized, and new students insist on PADI - after all, PADI marketing has done a very good job convincing everyone that they are the one and only agency that counts.

So he crumples like that object on the deep training dive, and he starts printing fake PADI cards. After all, in his mind, his cards aren't any worse than the PADI cards, they just lack the label.

A plausible scenario?

so, an experienced diver owns a dive shop with an investment of at least $50k (most likely more) just to setup a small compressor, few pieces of gear, some stock - the experienced individual is willing to steal credentials that he could gain in about 2 weeks (an IDC + IE for any agency) and risk to throw away his initial investment.
The setup for printing fake cards would cost him almost as much as gaining legitimate credentials.
The only motivation is to make a quick buck without caring for training to teach because it would cost him much more money.
keep in mind that the individual is also going on a limb without insurance, as nobody would cover an instructor without credentials.

to elaborate a fraud to his scale, he probably cut more corners.
this experienced individual is not very good at math, he's not very good at teaching and was quite a bad business person.

---------- Post added February 16th, 2015 at 04:59 PM ----------

Money?

what money?

if he's a professional he can get in bed with any agency with about $5k and 2 weeks of time, and it includes insurance for 1 year. his shop must be worth at least $50k just to open the door.
instead he puts the business on the line with an elaborate fraud.
I'd say he probably wasn't that good of a professional in the first place

 

[SubAquatix]

You have a pretty limited concept of IP as you seem concerned mostly with copyright, and you are also implying that PADI plagiarizes others' materials and\or public domain materials. I was not aware that there was dive training material in the public domain but i'll take your word for it. I'm not going to step into the PSI\SDI even thought it's interesting how the integrity agency has decided to make a play for what was an agency neutral activity.
There is other IP involved, improper use of brand and trademarks for example.
In any case, you have not answered the key question: why would a professional decide to steal others' property when this is available to the same professional? If someone takes shortcuts like stealing, how could be a credible educator?

Here we go again, but I gotta say, last time I am playing with you. So, one bold point at a time

1. Well, I guess a little bit. After all, the definition of Intellectual property is: a work or invention that is the result of creativity, such as a manuscript or a design, to which one has rights and for which one may apply for a patent, copyright, trademark, etc.
Since the discussion in the accusation had to do with written material, kinda leads one to discuss copyrights.

2. No implication of Plagiarism at all. What I said is that much of the work is likely reworded from public domain. I did take some poetic license using 50% as the amount of the work. Forgive me for that.

3. Gee, I don't know. How about the complete NOAA Dive Manual? Don't Like that one? Lets go with the Navy Dive Manual. you know- the original Dive manual.

4. Hey- got one we can agree on, but of course, it is copyrighted material!

5. Well, I thought it pretty obvious, since others have posted a possible scenario since, but hey, I said I would play once more. Guy thinks he's being slick by trying to create his own Certifying agency. Pitches it and sells it using material that does it better that he can. Gets carried away and copies to much material, including copyrighted stuff. Customers go out with his certification card and are turned down. They get pissed off and and threaten to call the BBB. He has access to an original PADI card, scan one side and builds a word template for the other, and starts printing of the cards to get people off of his back . By this stage, however, he is into over 300 certifications and it has snowballed beyond his control. So The answer? I wouldn't call him a professional, I'd call him a schemer turned into a liar who became a cheater- and got caught. All that said, he did it for money.

And, once again, since all of this is pretty basic information and the only reason for continuing to drag out this diatribe is to poke a fire, well, I have no more time for that.

 

[NC Air Hog]

respect for the ballsy people that come to your store, steal a bunch of gear and walk away, or for the guys that sell stolen and counterfeit gear under your name

See, I was trying to shed a silver lining. Hoping someone comes to rob me just isn't very nice at all.

 

[ams511]

This doesn't surprise me at all. Miami is the fraud capital of the US. If you can think it up it was already done. Some woman was charged with practicing medicine without a license for giving butt enhancements by injecting fix-a-flat into peoples butts. The guy was probably a dive professional in Cuba or Venezuela and said hey I will sell certifications. What usually happens is the people take the money and go back to their home country. Sometimes they come back again with a new name and passport.

---------- Post added February 27th, 2015 at 05:44 PM ----------

I was not aware that there was dive training material in the public domain but i'll take your word for it.

Have you ever heard of the Navy Dive Manual?

 

[demed]

...The guy was probably a dive professional in Cuba or Venezuela and said hey I will sell certifications. What usually happens is the people take the money and go back to their home country....

---------- Post added February 27th, 2015 at 05:44 PM ----------



Have you ever heard of the Navy Dive Manual?

statistics say that more citizens than visitors get in trouble for fraud - Navy Dive Manual is exactly the type of publication written for the novice recreational diver, right....

 

[Rich Keller]

Navy Dive Manual is exactly the type of publication written for the novice recreational diver, right....

So you recommend ignoring the professionals and only listening to the amateurs?

 

[NAM001]

Told by the shop? was it a press release?
i love when entities like a shop or a company talk. must be one of those people-corporations that have recently been awarded personality by SCOTUS...

I'm surprised you didn't say that it was the agency's fault..

There is no connecton to being the agency's fault. It was solely the understanding of the student and taking a comment as a global piece of course information. The owners have told me the same thing about feeding the fish. Its part of the indoctrination for all new comers to the site and nothing to do with the course. For students it is intended to make the student not panic if they if they get nipped on the ear while on the platform.


Any way i dont think the quality of training provided in the fla incident has anything to do with fraud. The fraud comes in when something presented (the card) is not what it was promissed to be. (genuine, valid, and accredited) Kinda of like the the nhome made harvard graduation cirtificate. The other fraud would be the instructor presenting themselves as legitimate when they were not.

 

[tursiops]

PADI marketing has done a very good job convincing everyone that they are the one and only agency that counts.

Why do you say this?


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