Florida Atty Gen.: Miami guy sells fake course, PADI cards

[Omisson]

Some might argue that PADI has been issuing bogus cards for decades.

Someone violates PADIs intellectual property rights, endangers dive students with bogus Certs and training, and somewhere on Scubaboard someone finds a way to bash PADI....

At least the haters are consistent enough to be transparent.

 

[demed]

Some might argue that PADI has been issuing bogus cards for decades.

another couch diver for whom diving the keys means pressing on the keyboard really hard when posting on scubaboard

 

[SubAquatix]

Someone violates PADIs intellectual property rights, endangers dive students with bogus Certs and training, and somewhere on Scubaboard someone finds a way to bash PADI....

At least the haters are consistent enough to be transparent.

While I love the defense of PADI, Where in the documentation provided did you find an accusation of endangering the students or providing bogus training??

 

[demed]

... The owners of the shop were not authorized to give instruction...

i resent the notion that in an unregulated industry someone should authorize anyone else to give instruction. in fact, no dive shop needs to be authorized to give instruction.
Any shop owner or individual can provide instruction. Whether that instruction is worth anything is a different subject.

The issue here is about consumer protection, stealing intellectual property, misusing trademarks and fraud, matters for civil and criminal code.
Impersonating someone else, selling counterfeit goods, misappropriating others trademarks.

If the shop certified students under its own name, they would probably been ok. The value (not the validity) of that certification might be questionable.
People start their agencies all the time - rebadge materials after a hurried and approximate editing job, enlist a bunch of instructor friends, write your own cards - that's all is necessary to start an agency, and it 's exactly how some of the most famous agencies got started.

---------- Post added February 15th, 2015 at 07:54 PM ----------

so the guy was probably an experienced diver and "could" train people how to dive but didn't have the legal qualifications to do so?

Yeah this is quite awful. I'm sure he's qualified but that's dangerous. It's almost as horrifying as if he were pretending to be a doctor. Though that would be impressive to pull off.

What is the legal qualification to train divers?

---------- Post added February 15th, 2015 at 07:57 PM ----------

I had no idea it was that easy to start your own certifying agency! I should look into starting my own agency. Is the name "Basic Scuba" taken? Or maybe "Better Scuba"? I could call it "BS" for short.

You clearly have not been diving as long as you think you have since some of the most famous brands in this industry, including some you might worship in your closet, have been started this way

---------- Post added February 15th, 2015 at 08:01 PM ----------

I don't get it.

I can see fraud if he sold cards with no training. I can see fraud if he sold training without cards.

However I can't wrap my head around why anybody would teach classes and issue cards, but not to the same people.

It sounds like some sort of bone-headed sting operation or someone got something really screwed up in the complaint.

flots.

As a matter of fact, selling cards with no training, and certainly selling training without cards, are not fraud.

It's fraud when you sell to someone something you don't have title to sell, or you sell something different from what you agreed to sell.

---------- Post added February 15th, 2015 at 08:07 PM ----------

Actually they did. I knew the place where they certified and the truth is, I believe, they were told , by the shop, not to take cheese wiz to feed the fish cause they hang at the platforms and will nip at you for food handouts. They still had thier temporary "DIVERS LICENSE." After an imidiate SI and sit down chat, they took my word that it was no longer necessary to have an instructor or DM to leave the platform. We then moved on to buoyancy and getting closer to horizontal than 45 degreees and dog paddling at depth. Yes we did it on the platform.

Its unbelieveable some of the things you hear. they had less than 10 dives in thier book, which was one of those premade 6"x6" log books, with the dive flag cover, , they also asked me what I do when the my book gets full and wont hold any more dives????? Like do I carry a spare so I can keep diving?????. I showed them my home made XL sheet log book, and it amazed them. They did not know they could dive with out a official dive book.

I did not seek this couple out . It was crouded at the lake and I shared a picnic site with them. I dont know who learned more that day me or them.

Told by the shop? was it a press release?
i love when entities like a shop or a company talk. must be one of those people-corporations that have recently been awarded personality by SCOTUS...

I'm surprised you didn't say that it was the agency's fault.

---------- Post added February 15th, 2015 at 08:14 PM ----------

While I love the defense of PADI, Where in the documentation provided did you find an accusation of endangering the students or providing bogus training??

The complaint here is about issuing selling courses and fake certification cards by an individual or group of individuals who had no right to do so.

You are absolutely right in pointing that theoretically and hypothetically, these individuals could have indeed provided top notch training.

It's just statistically improbable that someone who devises such an elaborate fraud to misrepresent his\her credentials (and the credentials issued), which in all fairness are not hard to obtain - you might well believe that the bank robber is also a model citized who pays taxes on the heist and teaches civic law to unprivileged children in between jobs.

 

[Rich Keller]

Got me by a couple of years- I graduated in 79. Worked at the Northport Marine Center for a few years and Went to School at Grumman, prior to becoming part of Briarcliffe. Taught Scuba with Ed Teidemann at Farmingdale and a couple other schools before he opened up his shop, then moved to Maryland in 85. Favorite Dive , for years, was the Gwendolyn Steers, right there by Eatons Neck!!

You probably know my brother Mike, he would have graduated with you if the family had not moved to Huntington before that. I was in commercial diving school in 79 and moved to New Orleans after that. Spent most of my time getting lobster off Lloyd Neck when I was home.

---------- Post added February 16th, 2015 at 06:58 AM ----------

Someone violates PADIs intellectual property rights, endangers dive students with bogus Certs and training, and somewhere on Scubaboard someone finds a way to bash PADI....

At least the haters are consistent enough to be transparent.

It was a joke son, lighten up. So you feel violated? Tell me where it hurts.

---------- Post added February 16th, 2015 at 07:02 AM ----------

another couch diver for whom diving the keys means pressing on the keyboard really hard when posting on scubaboard

Who woke up the instructors? Do you feel violated too? You and Omission should start a support group. As for my dive history, read my profile then read between the lines.

---------- Post added February 16th, 2015 at 07:09 AM ----------

You clearly have not been diving as long as you think you have since some of the most famous brands in this industry, including some you might worship in your closet, have been started this way

I think I have been diving since 1970 but there are parts of the 70s that are not too clear. Not sure how this became about brands or what you worship in your closet. Maybe its time for you to come out of the closet?

---------- Post added February 16th, 2015 at 07:29 AM ----------

When I start my agency I will need a couple of instructors. Do you guys want BS certifications #1 and #2? You both fit the BS qualification standards.

 

[flots am]

As a matter of fact, selling cards with no training, and certainly selling training without cards, are not fraud.

It's fraud when you sell to someone something you don't have title to sell, or you sell something different from what you agreed to sell.

The fraud I was referring to was selling PADI cards without the required training (or auth from PADI), as well as selling training, with the promise of cards, but not delivering.

All that's required to train divers and issue cards is some water to teach in and a card printer.

I could run the whole thing from my car if I didn't mind the prospect of getting my butt sued off.

flots.

---------- Post added February 16th, 2015 at 09:55 AM ----------

You are absolutely right in pointing that theoretically and hypothetically, these individuals could have indeed provided top notch training.

It's just statistically improbable that someone who devises such an elaborate fraud to misrepresent his\her credentials (and the credentials issued), which in all fairness are not hard to obtain - you might well believe that the bank robber is also a model citized who pays taxes on the heist and teaches civic law to unprivileged children in between jobs.

I don't see how quality and fraud are connected. It would be easy to provide a really excellent OW class and use the PADI name for marketing purposes even if it was completely illegal.

In fact, if I lived somewhere where it was hard/impossible to sue, this would actually be an excellent business model since you could get a free ride with all their marketing and name recognition.

flots.

 

[demed]

.... As for my dive history, read my profile then read between the lines....

sorry, i have better choices when it comes to fiction.

---------- Post added February 16th, 2015 at 07:57 AM ----------

...
I don't see how quality and fraud are connected...

that explains a lot

 

[flots am]

that explains a lot

What does it explain specifically?

Say I'm well connected and live in Somalia. I teach a very comprehensive SCUBA class that covers all the required OW material, as well as a bunch of non-OW material like rock bottom, and produce very safe, competent divers, and issue counterfeit PADI cards.

How is the quality of the training connected to whether or not PADI got paid for anything?


flots.

 

[kelemvor]

So the guy who owned the shop has to pay 3-4.5 million in fines if I read that right? Depending on how many of the customers are elderly. I wonder how a person could ever hope to pay such a fine.

 

[SubAquatix]

So the guy who owned the shop has to pay 3-4.5 million in fines if I read that right? Depending on how many of the customers are elderly. I wonder how a person could ever hope to pay such a fine.

Think US court system. He will never have to pay such fines, either settling on a much lower fee, or claiming Bankruptcy and walking away from it altogether.

---------- Post added February 16th, 2015 at 11:51 AM ----------

The complaint here is about issuing selling courses and fake certification cards by an individual or group of individuals who had no right to do so.

You are absolutely right in pointing that theoretically and hypothetically, these individuals could have indeed provided top notch training.

It's just statistically improbable that someone who devises such an elaborate fraud to misrepresent his\her credentials (and the credentials issued), which in all fairness are not hard to obtain - you might well believe that the bank robber is also a model citized who pays taxes on the heist and teaches civic law to unprivileged children in between jobs.

And that should be where the analysis stops, but with bored winter divers and armchair lawyers (like myself), that is seldom the case! As far as my beliefs, they don't really play into the matter, but history has shown there are all kinds of Bank Robbers, and I am blessed, at my age, to have known quite a few who pay taxes and give to the needy!