First time getting narced...Yipes!

[wedivebc]

And I have given you scientific data quoted in technical diving manuals regarding lipid solubility experiments.

.

I am having trouble finding the scientific data you mentioned.
Other that stating O2 is lipid soluable which it is you have failed to connect that fact to inert gas narcosis. If you have some fact please present them. And I have been to lots of dive shops and read lots of dive books and I still don't have conclusive evidence.

 

[DIR-Atlanta]

I am not sure what theory DIR-Atlanta is talking about since Meyer-Overton deals with inert gas narcosis so it's a pretty big leap to say just because oxygen is more soluble in lipids it has higher narcotic potential. The experts in the field can't agree on how much effect a metabolized gas has on narcosis I am curious, what theory do you base this statement on?

I'm referring to the lipid solubility of O2 relative to other inert gases. I understand that O2 is not "inert", and I am aware that Meyer-Overton addresses inert gases only. I am also aware that there are no conclusive scientific studies that support the relative narcotic potential of Oxygen as compared to other inert gases that are used in diving. That is why I was very careful to state that it is "theoretical" and that "in my opinion" it is most prudent to treat O2 as being at least as narcotic as N2.

This is based on my own personal observations, as well as the conclusions and observations of many divers whose opinions I hold in extremely high regard. I have never personally experienced a tox episode, but I have been narced plenty of times (both on air as well as on Nitrox), and my belief (based on my personal experience) is that Oxygen contributes to narcosis in a significant and measurable way. This belief has increased as a result of my transition to helium-based mixtures over the last few years (and in particular on logistically complex dives in the ~100 foot range that I had previously done on Nitrox).

Maybe your experience has been different, and you are certainly free to believe what you want about Oxygen narcosis. I'm just calling it like I see it.

 

[dave4868]

Personally, on occasion, at 60-80', I've noticed some deterioration in my ability to perform some simple tasks, like tying knots, etc. This has been near the end of fairly dark, low vis, high exertion, drysuit solo dives.

Heck, I've even had a brain fart at 40', too. That was a drysuit buddy dive in a dark, warm river with low vis and moderate current.

Then again, in Bonaire, I felt completely functional at 178' wearing a shorty in 80-degree water with 100' vis and plenty of ambient light. There, I was able to troubleshoot a simple problem with my camera and later quickly return a signal to a buddy and then make multiple hand signals to indicate I would be ascending and leveling off at 100', exchanging tank pressures with him, etc.

So, I have to ask myself, "how much am affected by factors other than nitrogen narcosis?"

Those factors might include anxiety, task loading, time pressure, ergonomics of gear, physical exertion levels, buddy confusion, etc.

For most people, anxiety alone can greatly affect perception and performance. How do people decide the effect was from nitrogen narcosis rather than anxiety?

These other factors would be extremely hard to quantify and/or separate from nitrogen's effect, I'm sure.

Can someone here provide some links to studies that sort these things out?

Or even some studies of nitrogen narcosis alone, such as performed in a chamber?

Euphoria's a bit more clear, but gosh, I get that at 10'.

Dave C

 

[ArcticDiver]

dave4868

You make excellent points. Although some lab tests may indicate certain chemical characteristics for the various gasses; they do not in all cases directly translate into effects on human performance. This is especially so within the ranges we are discussing here.

When one thinks critically on the issue the answer is obvious. The chemical effects of the gases are but part of the total effects impacting on our bodies during a dive. When all the effects are totaled and related to the body's daily variance the critical observer can only come up with an approximation of what the performance impact of the breathing gasses will be.

And that is what makes it scary. Just because you weren't impaired on a particular dive profile on previous dives doesn't mean you won't be on the next one.

 

[JennyWren]

I'm a newbie diver (two dives since qualification) but I've noticed a weird effect which might be a bit of narcosis, need your opinions on this. Back in my crazy younger days I used to use some drugs (pot/mushrooms) once in a while, and I always found that for a few days afterwards I felt "different", like the world was a little off and I was seeing things a bit differently. This feeling would dissipate over about 5-7 days. On my last two dives, we went to 60' and 55'. I'm new enough at diving that I'm still just goggle-eyed at the wonder of it down there (feeling like flying, loving the weightlessness, the fish, etc) so I definitely wouldn't be able to tell the difference between euphoria brought on by such a wicked-cool experience as diving here in Hawaii, or narcosis. However, on more than one occasion now I've felt this lingering after effect for a few days after diving, like I had some "life-changing experience". I know it sounds totally cliche or something, and I'm a very cynical person so I can't really chalk this up to just an airy-fairy mental state, it feels like a physical effect to me. Has anyone else had a similar experience? Is it possible that getting a bit narcy at 60' was similar enough to being on drugs that I'm getting the same longer lasting effects? It's not a bad thing, just interesting.

 

[The Chairman]

Narcosis has no residual effect. Once you leave the depths, the narcosis will leave you. More than likely, you might have experienced some ear trauma that is making your feel off balance. Is is serious? I am not a doctor and have no way of telling: especially over the internet. If it bothers you, please contact a physician. Better safe than injured.

 

[wedivebc]

On my last two dives, we went to 60' and 55'. I'm new enough at diving that I'm still just goggle-eyed at the wonder of it down there (feeling like flying, loving the weightlessness, the fish, etc) so I definitely wouldn't be able to tell the difference between euphoria brought on by such a wicked-cool experience as diving here in Hawaii, or narcosis. However, on more than one occasion now I've felt this lingering after effect for a few days after diving, like I had some "life-changing experience". I know it sounds totally cliche or something, and I'm a very cynical person so I can't really chalk this up to just an airy-fairy mental state, it feels like a physical effect to me. Has anyone else had a similar experience? Is it possible that getting a bit narcy at 60' was similar enough to being on drugs that I'm getting the same longer lasting effects? It's not a bad thing, just interesting.

Wow man, nitrogen flash-backs are the best.
Actually the effects are probably more to do with the euphoria experienced by partaking in the coolest sport ever invented but I keep chasing the high with every dive baby.

 

[beester]

I'm a beginning diver with only 130 dives but I've done some deeper dives. (to get DM equivalent certification we need to do 25 dives deeper than 100 feet).

What I believe is that you'll have narcotic effects at any depths (even very shallow). What I also believe is that you can learn to live with some of the narcotic effects you feel or don't feel.

Diving in it self is not very hard once you get basic stuff in your mechanical brain. Buyancy, navigation, keep check of gas supply, keep check of diveplan and deco. After a while all of this becomes second nature. This means that although at 100 feet you are narced and can maybe only function mentally at 50% or less of your normal capacity you won't feel this as such since you don't need more then 50% for you 'day to day' diving tasks. IF the **** hits the fan obviously you could very well get a very nasty surprise since you'll need all the thinking power you can get to analyse quickly and make the correct decision. In such circumstances the effect of being narced can be a real killer since you might make wrong choices, won't react correctly (if you react at all), etc...

I've never been narced out of my skull as not being able to react any more, no longer aware of my surroundings...

I have been pleasantly narced a couple of times:

- Diving in winter at a quary with a max depth of 120 feet. Temp was around 44 ° F. After about 30 min I would start to feel cold... however now at depth I felt pleasantly warm... too pleasantly warm in my opinion so I ascended 30 feet.
- Diving in Bonaire I was feeling on top of the world at 130 feet watching garden eels. I was totaly aware of divetime, deco obligation, gas supply, etc but i felt too good to be not realy narced.

Then I've had some lesser experiences with being narced:
- When diving in very very (less then 5 feet) visibility, with current coming on very strongly (too late in water after slack tide) at 100 + feet. I was slightly overbreathing myself, and this induced a bit of anxiety. I started getting doom thoughts... so I thumbed the dive.
- When diving at 100 feet I was leading the dive and was strangely surprised when we reached our first deepstop. Normally the deepstop timer will start counting down, but this is on the exact same position were normally the NDL timer is. So I was realy puzzled when I saw this NDL tick down very rapidly to zero... I was realy wondering if my computer was going bonkers. It took me a minute to realise this was the deepstop timer instead of NDL.

Last point... with our certification agency we need to perform rescues (pull a diver up) from 100 - 130 feet depth. This is done without assistance from the BCD so you need to pull someone up from depth using your leg power. At the slightest hind of overbreathing or narcing the exercise is canceled and this happens sometimes...

 

[CoralSeaMan]

"Is it possible that getting a bit narcy at 60' was similar enough to being on drugs that I'm getting the same longer lasting effects? It's not a bad thing, just interesting."

As someone else said, if the sensations last, see a doctor.

 

[Papa_Bear]

The rule I was taught was one martini for every 33ft! So 66ft two Martini's would and could be noticeable!