First stage, face up or down? Also, SPG sticking up or under the arm?

[djcheburashka]

Victor: chill. It's true that dir folks use the phrase "balanced rig" to mean getting the weight right. I don't think that means they have a copyright on the word "balance"

Anyway, when you say body trim is a two-axis proposition I think you mean that rotation around the vertical axis isn't part of it. True, but the location of the vertical axis along the body is part of trim.

Air trapping absolutely matters, both for control of position in the water column, and the balance of buoyancy (since you don't like "balanced rig") front-to-back and side-to-side along the divers body.

If gas in the bag isn't evenly distributed and doesn't find the highest point of the bag, the gas gets trapped in pockets of buoyancy that affect the divers position, and where it's a pain and an extra task to clear the gas. That happens in any rig where bungees constrict the wing-it's basic!

As for edd and putting weight on the back of tanks... I think there's been a lot of explanation elsewhere of why that's a terrible idea, so I won't repeat it. I hadn't heard before that he's still putting weights on the back of al tanks. Frankly I think it makes me rethink his credibility about any of it.

Tbone: none of the manufacturers going with it? Dude... The razor (no buttplate). The stealth (buttplate optional, suggested for steel tanks only). The contour (buttplate optional, function a mystery). The sms75... That wacky UTD rig... Like I said you're way out of date with this stuff.

Regarding when al tanks become positive--you're right, but the numbers change when you include the valve and first stage. Anyway, wasn't it you who said you don't adjust the rear of the tank down until you get to around 800psi? My point was to adjust it way sooner-I usually do it around 2000, whenever I reach back and feel that the rear has gotten floaty.

 

[tbone1004]

Razor and stealth both have counterlung D-rings which puts the attachment point a few inches below the waist belt and farther back, the contour and SMS75 both have buttplates integrated, and the UTD rig is an abomination, but all three were designed specifically with aluminum 80's in mind. Boegarts doesn't have access to steel tanks, UTD states "The next step is to add the best “balanced” tanks we can. We use aluminum cylinders (80cft/11l); they are much more balanced than steel tanks.", and as the Xdeep is a knockoff of each of them, the same apply.

The Halcyon, SMS75, and HOG all have butt rails in the approximate location of the top point on the nomad, and if you swap out the flat rail to the hooked ones on the top holes on the SMS100 they end up in the same spot in relation to the waist belt as the Razor and Xdeep systems. Both of those rigs integrated the buttplate into the backplate design. Diverite came out with the separate buttplate design to allow the transpac to be used to save on cost by not designing an entirely new rig from scratch and having an extra SKU in the system. These were all designed for the steel tanks used almost exclusively by NFL cave divers which is why they have the same basic look, comparable to the rigs above looking about the same for the type of diving they were designed for.

So where has the buttplate gone? Nowhere. It's has gone from a separate piece to make the Nomad modular, to a one piece backplate on the SMS100. Then the system got a bit shorter and the straight rails were changed to the bent rails from DiveRite's tech buttplate on the rigs designed for cave diving, and the ones designed for AL80 diving have offset counterlung D-rings to mimic this system without the wide buttplate. The point of both systems is still the same as it was when the Nomad first came out, move the attachment point below the waist belt and close to the spine to allow the bottles to hang properly.

would love to see the justification for not putting the counter weights on the tanks instead of on the diver. Only reason I can see is if you have a no mount situation you would create more of a moment to hold up, but you should be able to hold up 3lbs on each arm with little trouble since you hold the tanks from their attachment points anyway. If you question his credibility, call him and ask him why, I'm sure he'd love to explain his reasoning and if you can prove him wrong, you'll see him change his setup that day, but I'm betting he has some pretty damn good reasoning behind it.

 

[djcheburashka]

Honestly, I'm familiar with all of those rigs and I don't have a clue what You're trying to talk about. The razor, stealth, contour, UTD, and i'm pretty sure the most recent Hollis also, all attach the tank to a D ring on the waistband.

I'm not sure what you mean by "counterlung" here, but if you mean The chest d rings, we just discussed this recently. The old Hollis put the D rings at the underarm. The razor and Stealth put them at the clavicle. The contour has them in both locations.

If by "integrated" you mean sold in a package, then you're correct about some of those rigs. If you mean "permanently attached and intended to be used on all dives," that may be true of the SMS, it's definitely not true of the stealth (or razor) and I doubt it for the contour.

Seriously, dude...

 

[tbone1004]

offset counterlung D-ring, right off of the lower plate. That is a counterlung off-set D-ring positioned on the waist belt to lower the attachment point as well as provide a fixed attachment point in place of a standard D-ring



same there.


Halcyon system with steel tanks attached to the buttplate and hanging in proper position. If you look at that you'll see a set of SS grommets above the attachment point of the crotch strap. This is where the waist strap is. ergo, the buttplate is built into the backplate by making it significantly longer than a standard SS backplate. Diverite does this with a detachable buttplate, Halcyon, Hollis, Armadillo, HOG, etc. all have them built into the backplate design.

Your full of ****, so stop before you dig your hole even deeper.



that is what tanks look like at the start of a dive if you don't mount them far enough back. *this is the UTD system btw directly from their website* I.e. like utter crap hanging at least 4 inches too low with valves below the armpits instead of behind them. That is a function of not having bungees set up properly allowing the valve to hang, and having the tank attachment too low at the beginning of the dive causing the tanks to ride too low.



Xdeep stealth with the tanks back on the butt mounted attachment points. Tank necks are still a bit low, but the attachment point is where it should be on the bottom of the tanks causing them to hang where the midline of the tank is inline with the midline of the body.

stop putting words in my mouth, never once did I say "intended to be used on all dives" for those attachment points. By integrated I mean that instead of a normal size backplate i.e. Transpac, and adding a butt plate to extend the length of the backplate for proper attachment points, they have built a custom backplate that has a buttplate integrated into it, which is why the backplate for the SMS, Contour, and HOG all resemble the Transpac if you have a buttplate on it. For AL80's if you weight the cam bands they should be used, if you choose not to weight the cam bands, you can get away with a very far back mounted D-ring and move to the front, but with steel tanks like the HOG, Hollis SMS systems, Nomad, and Halcyon Countour were intended to be used with, you clip to the rail on the buttplate and leave it there

 

[djcheburashka]

You're confusing drop-rings that are gear attachment points, for reels and such, for tank attachment points on the razor and stealth.

Pull the manuals for those rigs if you don't believe me.

Your reference to "counterlungs" on open circuit gear is totally bewildering.

On the Hollis and nomad, people attach random gear to the same door handles as their tanks. Many of us call this a "design flaw." Among other reasons, bc the stuff all bangs into each other and throws the tanks out of trim, or gets thrown out of trim itself, or becomes an entanglement hazard.

Other than the contour, where they made the door handles one piece (disappointing - the rest of the rig looked interesting), but that isn't where aluminum are supposed to be clipped-off anyway, you just don't have a clue what you're looking at or talking about.

The Utd pic does look awful. But there's a fundamentally different configuration than the one you're familiar with. We put the valves and first stage (not the tank neck as in the pic) under or "in" the armpit.

You're confusing "the way edd did it before people knew better" with modern sm.

Look it up if you don't believe me

Let me make it blunter: if there's a single cell in your brain that thinks you have a clue what you're talking about, go back and read the manuals for those rigs. Then google the cave diving and dir forums for discussion of why we don't attach weights to our aluminum tanks anymore. (Hint: part of it has something to do with what victor called a "balanced rig.")

When you're done then perhaps you can participate in this intelligently.

Or feel free to double-down and dig yourself deeper

---------- Post added August 25th, 2014 at 08:22 PM ----------

Btw-before you respond, try zooming in a bit on those pics you posted lol

 

[tbone1004]

that is what those drop rings are called, offset counterlung d-rings, identical to what is on the Xdeep
DeepSeaSupply Under Counterlung D-Ring

No mention of tank attachment in the xdeep manual other than the buttplate, just says "back d-rings" in unrelated items. They do specifically mention the buttplate as recommended for use with steel tanks though. Steve uses them to clip his pouch thing, and if you dive a razor properly configured with steel tanks, the bottles hang too low for proper sidemount diving, so I'll give you that he doesn't use those offset d-rings for bottle attachment, and maybe on the Xdeep, but with xdeep recommending the buttplate for steel tanks and having yet to see a Razor with steel tanks properly trimmed, would love to see one if you have one, the buttplate argument for steel tanks still stands.

Also, you mention DIR, and while GUE doesn't use that term anymore, Edd designed the Countour for JJ, and was asked to write the course for it.... He also mostly designed the SMS75, SMS50, and the HOG rigs....

stealth with proper tank neck positioning and as close as possible empty al80 tank positioning


post the link to the tank weights, I still can't find it in the DIR section, but it can't have anything to do with a balanced rig. A properly weighted rig makes the diver as close to neutral as possible. In backmount you do not include stages or deco bottles in your ballast calculations because they are not attached to you. Sidemount is the same way, if you carry all of the lead on your belt and you have to no mount, your tanks run the risk of getting out of control while being pushed forward and you are now 6-8lbs overweight with the two tanks in front of you. If you weight the tanks so they are neutral, you are now only carrying the ballast required for you/exposure protection/rig, so I'd argue that that is more appropriately "balanced" than being overweight if for whatever reason you have to drop a tank or push them ahead of you

 

[djcheburashka]

No, they aren't called offset counterlung d rings. D rings that go under counterlungs and stick out are called offset counterlung d rings.

The back d rings on the stealth are just like the back d rings on the razor-there are two sets of d rings on each side, which are different from the gear attachment points.

The rest of what you wrote doesn't appear to have enough substance to be worth penetrating, let alone responding to. It's apparent that you don't know what a counterlung is; you don't know what a balanced rig is; you haven't even looked at the pics you're posting; and you don't understand, and apparently have never seen in person, any of the rigs you're discussing except the old sms.

---------- Post added August 25th, 2014 at 08:56 PM ----------

Oh - and I just checked, it doesn't seem edd had anything to do with the contour design. Which would be totally bizarre if he had, since he gets paid for promoting another manufacturers gear.

You really just make this stuff up an random don't you

---------- Post added August 25th, 2014 at 08:57 PM ----------

And one last thing -- in that pic of the stealth, do you see any door handles? Do you see any tanks attached to "offset counterlung d-rings"?

It's like a joke that won't end

 

[tbone1004]

D-rings that stick out sideways are called counterlung d-rings, they can also be used on waist belts to attach a pouch and various other stuff to the bottom of certain sidemount rigs. They originated as counterlung d-rings, and that's still what they are, what you use them for I yield on, but I have seen many divers use them for steel tank attachment points. That pic of the stealth is clearly al tanks and was to point out the top attachment point being where it is supposed to be, not below your armpits where you create quite a bit of drag since it is out of the natural slipstream of your body. Point of this goes back to the original discussion, AL tanks with the lead placed on the tank instead of on the diver trim better than AL tanks that are not in plane with the diver. No picture I have seen of Steve has him with his tanks hung like we can get steel tanks. They aren't Lofflin bad, but they're not flat, every picture in his gallery looks like that. Putting the weight on the end of the steel tanks allows them to ride flat, which is how you want them. I do seriously want to see this thread on why it's a bad idea, because the truth is, it really isn't.

call Edd up, ask him what part he played in designing the contour, ask him about the class he was asked to write, and also about him being asked to teach said class for GUE, you'll be surprised. He has a few of them in his store, sells them, and dives one on occasion.

 

[loquat149]

Oh - and I just checked, it doesn't seem edd had anything to do with the contour design.

HaHa, okay then!

Dave

 

[djcheburashka]

No, d rings that go under counterlungs are called counterlung d-rings. I think that you continue to repeat this nonsense is sufficient to demonstrate the cluelessness of the rest of what you wrote, and I won't bother with the details.

As for "calling edd," if edd wants to say that he designed the contour, and the three Hollis rigs, and multiple agencies' sm class materials-well he can come here himself and post that While the ensuing conversations with Oceanic and JJ would be deeply humorous, I won't be holding my breath.