First Rebreather Purchase - Lots of Questions

[jgttrey]

Pathfinder is skinnier, but I really don't think it's that big a difference overall. The downside is limited upgrade path if you do decide to do deeper dives. The original idea, which OP might like, was to sling the the combo bailout/dil and get the DIL off your back, but mostly I see people set it up just like a Meg and the only real difference is that it is skinnier and lacks the redundant network as well as any ability to go to a bigger scrubber canister if that is later desired. Part of the reason that it is discontinued, I believe, is that the Meg15 head is lower profile so you can use a smaller can with the same scrubber and do a mini-meg if you want. You get most of the benefits of the Pathfinder while maintaining the upgradeability. In other words, there was less need for a Pathfinder model when the head shrank with the '15 update.

FWIW, my understanding is that the Meg15 (which I have) is not discontinued nor is the Apecs system being discontinued.

There were tons of problems with the existing Apecs IV handsets and their batteries/charging system, in particular. Almost everyone I know had to get a new battery at one time or another, including me, but ultimately it's worked out fine. But, it was a huge headache and gave the A4 a bad rap (deserved).

As of DEMA, the word was ISC was working on a new Apecs handset to replace the current one. I understand it uses AAs or something disposible, like a Petrel, rather than the Lion in the current one and thus dispenses with the $80 dollar charging adapter and solves those battery QC issues. Hopefully, it won't be the ergonomic brick that the current A4 is either, but I don't know.

What I heard was the Tiburon was a gapfiller while the new Apecs handset was being developed and the Meg 15 would continue on. In the interim, ISC was stockpiling existing handset parts to support legacy A4 handsets rather than shipping more Meg15s with the current handset.

Now, I'm confident that the Tiburon is not just a "gap filler" because ISC knows darned well that folks have been asking for a "Shearwater Meg" for a long time. I'm sure it will continue on, but I don't think the 15 or the Apecs electronics are going away either. For one thing, I suspect strongly that ISC can't just substitute a Tiburon for a Meg15 on its military contracts. But, that's just speculation.

 

[JonG1]

The Lungfish and Triton may be worth a look, both really compact chest mounts, which are ideal for travel and can be used with SM or back mount bailout and the Triton has been used pretty deep for a small unit.

A buddy has just started out with a Triton and likes it, usual little bugbears but hes working through them.

I dive a venerable KISS Classic #16 off the prod line and love it for its simplicity and ease of maintenance but would definitely look at the above if buying again, but personally wouldn't go ECCR.

 

[njdiverjoe]

Pathfinder is skinnier, but I really don't think it's that big a difference overall. The downside is limited upgrade path if you do decide to do deeper dives. The original idea, which OP might like, was to sling the the combo bailout/dil and get the DIL off your back, but mostly I see people set it up just like a Meg and the only real difference is that it is skinnier and lacks the redundant network as well as any ability to go to a bigger scrubber canister if that is later desired. Part of the reason that it is discontinued, I believe, is that the Meg15 head is lower profile so you can use a smaller can with the same scrubber and do a mini-meg if you want. You get most of the benefits of the Pathfinder while maintaining the upgradeability. In other words, there was less need for a Pathfinder model when the head shrank with the '15 update.

FWIW, my understanding is that the Meg15 (which I have) is not discontinued nor is the Apecs system being discontinued.

There were tons of problems with the existing Apecs IV handsets and their batteries/charging system, in particular. Almost everyone I know had to get a new battery at one time or another, including me, but ultimately it's worked out fine. But, it was a huge headache and gave the A4 a bad rap (deserved).

As of DEMA, the word was ISC was working on a new Apecs handset to replace the current one. I understand it uses AAs or something disposible, like a Petrel, rather than the Lion in the current one and thus dispenses with the $80 dollar charging adapter and solves those battery QC issues. Hopefully, it won't be the ergonomic brick that the current A4 is either, but I don't know.

What I heard was the Tiburon was a gapfiller while the new Apecs handset was being developed and the Meg 15 would continue on. In the interim, ISC was stockpiling existing handset parts to support legacy A4 handsets rather than shipping more Meg15s with the current handset.

Now, I'm confident that the Tiburon is not just a "gap filler" because ISC knows darned well that folks have been asking for a "Shearwater Meg" for a long time. I'm sure it will continue on, but I don't think the 15 or the Apecs electronics are going away either. For one thing, I suspect strongly that ISC can't just substitute a Tiburon for a Meg15 on its military contracts. But, that's just speculation.

I have a Pathfinder and love it! The Pathfinder actually does have a redundant network, same as the Meg15. It has two ports dedicated to the primary network and a single port dedicated to the secondary network. You can plug in a Shearwater secondary, NERD, ...
The older Meg15s had four ports(2 primary, 2 secondary), then they removed the second secondary port and went to the same port configuration as the pathfinder.

Most everything is identical, Meg15 and Pathfinder share the same loop, counterlungs, HUD, handsets, only real difference is the head and canister. The canister is a bit bigger than many people suspect -- it holds 5.2 lbs of scrubber material. The official depth rating is 200 ft, though I wouldn't be concerned about taking it to 250 ft in cold water on a freshly packed scrubber. If you ask around you will find people have taken it much much deeper.

A couple years ago at BTS Leon told me that the manufacturing costs were higher to build a Pathfinder than a Meg15, mainly because the Pathfinder head is milled from a big block of Delrin and takes a ton more machining time. I speculate that the Pathfinder and Meg Mini were too similar, which only makes sense that the Pathfinder would get cut from the lineup.

Overall it's a great unit -- as mentioned by others the ApecsIV handset can be a pain in terms of the battery and getting to charge correctly. I've heard the same rumors about the new handset.

 

[tbone1004]

@JonG1 literally laughing out loud at "off the prod line" from KISS.... There was nothing close to resembling production at that point in their time.

Issue with lungfish and triton is US availability and support.

 

[JonG1]

@JonG1 literally laughing out loud at "off the prod line" from KISS.... There was nothing close to resembling production at that point in their time.

Issue with lungfish and triton is US availability and support.

Probably got Gordon's fingerprints on it somewhere!

 

[rjack321]

The Lungfish and Triton may be worth a look, both really compact chest mounts, which are ideal for travel and can be used with SM or back mount bailout and the Triton has been used pretty deep for a small unit.

A buddy has just started out with a Triton and likes it, usual little bugbears but hes working through them.

I would actually love a Triton, if a used one was around. But sadly both are units with zero North American dealers, support, or instruction. Do unless the OP is going to fly to Europe to buy one and a class, these are not really worth considering.

 

[Vicko]

My Meg instructor is diving a pathfinder, that unit looks and acts really good in the water. Here in Eu it's regularly being dived to 120 meters with 4 hour run times in cold water. And ready to dive with 2*3l tanks it's one of the lightest rebreathers I have seen (around 20 kg with a canister light and 2l argon tank)
Since it's been discontinued there is a lot of used units for sale. The problem with Pathfinder (and Meg 15) is that wires in the head don't last long so unless you know how to handle a soldering iron you will be paying someone to replace them every few years, considering you are so close to ISC that really should not be a problem.

 

[jgttrey]

I've certainly heard anecdotally of people using the Pathfinder for more aggressive dives. 120m, cold water, and 4 hour run time sounds very aggressive to me. Interesting, but pretty sure I would not do it.

The problem with Pathfinder (and Meg 15) is that wires in the head don't last long so unless you know how to handle a soldering iron you will be paying someone to replace them every few years, considering you are so close to ISC that really should not be a problem.

That is not a concern I have ever heard expressed before. The wires on my 15 are entirely potted. I cannot see how they would "not last long" nor how you would replace them yourself.

 

[JonG1]

I would actually love a Triton, if a used one was around. But sadly both are units with zero North American dealers, support, or instruction. Do unless the OP is going to fly to Europe to buy one and a class, these are not really worth considering.

I believe the lungfish is close to being included in iantd classes and Martin Robson is de bugging it for iantd, he visits florida regularly so could be an option.

Technical Cave, Sidemount & CCR Cave & Mine Diver courses

 

[njdiverjoe]

The problem with Pathfinder (and Meg 15) is that wires in the head don't last long so unless you know how to handle a soldering iron you will be paying someone to replace them every few years, considering you are so close to ISC that really should not be a problem.

Hmm not something I have ever heard before. I'm on the original wiring and haven't had any problems.