First BCD

[deepseafalcon]

To be clear, this is what I typed that you do not seem to be clear on. Let me rearrange the words for you;

For infrequent/vacation warm water divers who's certification lds will or did use jacket in class, there should be a sound reason (to recommend a bp/w). Most of the sound reasons to use bp/w are not sound reasons in the infrequent / vacation warm water/ jacket lds / just or not yet certified scenario.

at the risk of beating a dead horse that's dead twice over :
what exactly are the disadvantages of a BP/W that a new diver should not consider them, or in other words, which reasons to use them are not valid for new divers?
I just don't get it.

So let's try to be methodical, so the poor thread-opener - if he hasn't given up yet - at least gains something from the endless argument

I'll start a list with pros and cons of both choices. Others feel free to add, but please refrain from judging - the idea is that anyboday sees all arguments at once and can make their decision


Traditional BCD - pro

• familiarity after certification
• widely available in LDS
• immediately usable "out of the box"
• quickly adjustable to diff. divers
• very low cost models/promos available

Traditional BCD - con

• clutter/squeeze at chest and belly
• complex design with unecessary failure points
• not expandable
• doesn't promote horizontal swimming position
• addtl. weight needed to overcome bouyancy of padding
• can be heavy after dive due to water in padding

BP/W - pro

• no obstructions around chest/belly
• simple & robust design with minimum failure points
• expandable to future needs
• minimum drag in water
• promotes horizontal swimming position
• light travel and after-dive weight
• reduced need for weights

BP/W - cons

• initial familiarization
• less options at LDS/internet order only
• initial setup needed
• more difficult to adjust to different divers
• less low cost choices (but available)

I conciously left out "specialty arguments" like "can be used for side mounts" etc.

I believe it's obvious there is valid pros and cons for both.

I do believe both are valid choices for many types of diving including novices. BP/W needs some more upfront effort and rewards with practical advantages later - if the diver cares for them. The BCD is the quick and easy choice that "works out of the box" and is perfectly usable for many, as long as their preferences don't change.

Safe diving by one happy BP/W user
d.s.f.

 

[it_mike]

It's the dive computer battle all over again...:}

(remember when dive computers were for techies only? they're for special types of diving only and will kill the rec/infrequent diver?)

 

[deepseafalcon]

It's the dive computer battle all over again...:}

(remember when dive computers were for techies only? they're for special types of diving only and will kill the rec/infrequent diver?)

yeah, with the interesting twist that it is now part of the tech community that damns them as devil's work, as they don't do it right

I also remember big arguments some 15 years ago when backinflate BCD appeared, and many cautioned that they will kill divers by pushing their face in the water
Today, not many argue about them anymore, in fact the differentiation between jacket and backinflation BCDs is blurred. But the same argument (for which I have never seen hard evidence) lives on with BP/W.

I am convinced BP/W will come into general fashion at some point, to the better or the worse of the broader diving community.
Why?
any industry thrives on updates and "innovation". You just need a new model every year.
For a long time, this has worked by adding features to the once-simple jacket style BCD. (I owned such an early wonderful bright orange Scubapro "jacket" - no comparision to anything you can buy today

But we have reached a ceiling. There is just no room left to add more d-rings, bands, pockets or padding.
And attempts of "integrating" hoses etc. inside the BCD have widely failed, so a new trend is needed.

"Simplification" could be just that.
I think if properly pitched by one of the big names, it's actually not difficult to convince many more people to go this route.
Of course, we will see prettier things than simple steel plates, and features creep back in, and the whole cycle starting all over.
In a sense, that's already what you can see in the "feature rich" rigs of the more established BP/W suppliers.

Happy diving
d.s.f.

 

[it_mike]

For a long time, this has worked by adding features to the once-simple jacket style BCD. (I owned such an early wonderful bright orange Scubapro "jacket" - no comparision to anything you can buy today

But we have reached a ceiling. There is just no room left to add more d-rings, bands, pockets or padding.
And attempts of "integrating" hoses etc. inside the BCD have widely failed, so a new trend is needed.

Don't sell them short. What about a whole body BC? Integrate it into/around a wetsuit? Not to be confused with a drysuit...

 

[deepseafalcon]

Don't sell them short. What about a whole body BC? Integrate it into/around a wetsuit? Not to be confused with a drysuit...

no kidding ... I think I have seen something like that, just don't recall where and which maturity
f.h.

 

[svannoni]

I have to say it looks pretty obvious I started a ***** storm with this one. Both bcs I originally asked about are back inflates that have good reviews. They both seem solidly built for their pricepoints. The one downfall it seemed the beuchat had was the lift was high for a beginner non tech diver. From most of the looking around i have found for the bp/w setup they all seem to high lift also. For now I am interested in back inflated bc's. If I do become more advanced later maybe I will look to a bp/w setup for doubles. I look at it this way. When I first started hunting I only had one gun. Now it is same to say I got many more. So if I have to buy another rig later I guess I will have a backup or have one for a dive buddy to use.

 

[MSilvia]

From most of the looking around i have found for the bp/w setup they all seem to high lift also.

I understand it isn't what you're looking for, and I sincerely wish you the best of luck with whatever system you choose, but just as a point of fact/interest there are a number of wings available that have lift ratings as low as 18#.

 

[RonFrank]

I dive both a BP/W, AND :shocked2: a Zeagle Stiletto. I dive the BP/W dry, and the Stiletto is my warm water BC.

Do BP/W's dive better than any other BC? No, my BP/W is very similar to my Zeagle Stiletto. Back inflate style BC's regardless of type dive very similar, however some BP's secure a tank better than *SOME* Back Inflate BC's on the market.

Is Weight integration evil? The first thing a BP user may discover is that they need one of them there weight belts! IMO weight belts are a PITA. I dive one with a BP, but I like my stiletto better in the weight integration department.

Are BP/W's less expensive? No, in fact they cost about as much as a BC, and come complete with a lot less features. One has to purchase a weight system or weight belt, and pockets (if desired).

Do BP/W's fix trim? Trim is about Weight placement, Tank placement, and the diver. Anyone who instantly says that a BP fixes trim is confusing weight placement, and tank placement with a particular type of equipment.

Does A BP/W system makes one a better diver? The only thing that makes someone a better diver is diving. Good equipment selection can help, but does nothing magical.

Is a BP/W less equipment intensive? No, in fact just the opposite. At a minimum a BP/W diver generally needs a weight belt. That means two pieces of gear to one compared to a weight integrated BC. If one wants pockets, that is a third set of requirements.

When is a BP/W a good choice? If one wants to do doubles, there is no better solution. If one wants must carry a lot of weight (Drysuit diving/cold water diving) a steel Back Plate and STA can take 12lbs+ off the belt, and distribute it evenly across the back.

Ironically a good number of recreational dives on SB are VERY strong advocates of the BP/W system. Many with less than 100 dives (often 50) are VERY opinionated on the subject, and honestly, I have no idea why? Many/Most of these folks have very little experience with more than one BC.

Why is this such emotional subject? I have no clue... it is JUST DIVE GEAR!

 

[*dave*]

"Real Diver" is a crappy term and I'm sorry I used it.

I look at divers as a resource. I look to them for ideas, for validation and feedback. There are a lot of divers out there, so I have to filter on something and I choose experience as my primary filter. If a diver is logging less than 10 dives a year, their input is not going to carry the same weight as a diver who is diving weekly or multiple times each month.

Using vacation divers a testament to the merits of one piece of kit over another doesn't carry much weight when they only have experience in one configuration and that experience is limited to a few times each year.

I'm not suggesting these people should stop diving. I am saying that the majority of these people do not have the experience to validate their opinions.

Really?
I own my own "rig" dive 1-2 times/year and I absolutely love the sport of diving. It has become almost an obsession with me. I don't think your definition fits. I know a lot of people that are passionate about their hobby but because of location don't get to dive that much. I only dive 1-2 times a year because of the cost of travel etc. I don't see me dropping my newfound hobby anytime soon but trying to work out more trips is going to be important in the upcoming years.

 

[shoturtle]

RonFrank, very well put post.