First BCD

[MauiScubaSteve]

OK dfs, see if you can follow along "in context."

IMHO, the SeaQuest/Aqua Lung jacket BC's that most of my employers have used for rental/training are the easiest BC's to release air from during a dive that I have had the pleasure to work with. My favorite photography BC is one of those designs. The Mares jackets at my current job seem to be easier to release air from than the non-jacket used by the occasional divers I get to lead. Also, IMHO, the majority of these divers are intimidated by the regular wind chop on the surface from our trade winds, and the jacket divers deal with that intimidation much better than the non-jacket divers. These opinions are due to the much greater percentage of non-jacket divers I see flailing near or at the surface.

Dave quoted the above underlined words and asked;

What makes these jackets easier to dump than other brands?

To which my full answer was below;

For starters, SeaQuest's superior designs. One of the best moves Aqua Lung ever made was buying SeaQuest.

The first superior design I will mention is not just on their jacket BC's; the in/deflator unit has simple easy to use buttons! The first shop I worked for used Oceanic jackets and I liked their in/deflate design less than SeaQuest but it was not that big an issue, until the new Oceanic wrap around inflate button circa '03-ish. That Oceanic design may be the worst ever, making it very hard to press the deflate button without also pressing the inflate button. As I see it, most big name BC manufacturers have similarly difficult deflate button ergonomics, you have to pay more attention to not inflate when you are trying to deflate than with the SeaQuest unit.

That said I'm sure there are other systems that are workable, above I was really just talking about the gear my employers have had for me to use (and many other shops/boats/resorts here).

The other superior design must be the way the in/deflate unit is positioned, as the vast majority of my divers in SeaQuest jackets have let air out easier than any other jackets I have seen infrequent/new divers in. I also dive a SeaQuest Balance, which has the same in/deflate piece as my jacket, but I must contort way farther up and to the right to get all the air out compared to the jacket. The kidney dump is also way more accessible on the jacket models (any brand here); the Balance wings out so I have to stretch as far back as possible to reach that dump, and I have relatively long arms!

I work in the Balance because the slate my employer requires me to use attaches more elegantly (and it was only $20 at the Lahaina Salvation Army), but it is more difficult for me to adjust my buoyancy in the Balance than in any jacket BC I have ever used. I had thousands of dives in jackets before using the back inflate so the difficulty is minimal to me, but when I see Balance divers with buoyancy issues I am not surprised!

The only divers I know with bp/w bought them for the flexibility of diving doubles or because they used to dive dry. I do know plenty of instructors who like me now use BI, but most of those would use jackets when teaching students (who would mostly be in jackets).

You seem to have only maybe read the three parts you quoted (underlined) without reading any of the pertinent conversation. Following from above, we are having a conversation about my opinions. I also related some facts from my guiding/teaching experience, things I personally saw on Ocean dives.

Hello Halemano, I have no intention to bash you as I believe you truly just want to convey your view with the best intention
However, I think you should differentiate more clearly between facts and personal opinions, as well as be careful with absolute statements.

Above, I think, illustrates what I mean by the latter.

I tried to be pretty specific about the gear I've used and seen to come up with my opinions. Yes I guess I got a little lazy not typing SeaQuest every time I typed Balance but I did type "SeaQuest Balance" the first time, just a few sentences ago, in the same post. As far as absolutes; I typed superior, not most superior ever. I guess the bold parts above are the cliff notes of this off topic rebuttal. The one correction I will make is;

I do know a few instructors who like me now use BI to guide off the boats, but more than half would use jackets when teaching students in the pool at least (students would mostly be in jackets) since we still own chlorine faded jackets. I only do Open Water training dives in my SeaQuest Balance when the Boss surprises me after my boat shifts.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

That is why real divers should fly business class to vacation, 2 check bags, 50-60 lb a bag depending on airline.

I agree with you on the real divers, but I am amazed that some out there are so elitist to discount the rec diver as a real diver. None of my dive buddies waste the time for an air2 type system. A good inflator is all they care about.

I knew you were out there! By the way what is the typical difference between coach and business class for a typical vacation that includes diving?

All our interisland flights have gone to charging for coach checked bags, but the difference to a non-charged seat is significantly more than the charges. My Gara 2000's may have made their last trip in August.

 

[Matt S.]

To be clear, the new and infrequent divers I see diving in their own bp/w rigs also have a higher percentage of near surface and surface flailings than the new and infrequent jacket divers I see; about the same percentage as with back inflate but less test subjects.

If that is what you have seen, OK. But I have a hard time believing that if you were able to examine all infrequent divers, those using backplate/wings would be more often out of control than those using jackets. Maybe it's something in the water over there.

I'll continue recommending the practical and effective dp/w (deathplate/wing) rig in good conscience.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I'll continue recommending the practical and effective dp/w (deathplate/wing) rig in good conscience.

For every prospective diver/buyer, no matter the circumstances?

 

[Matt S.]

Sure. I completely disagree with your assertion that they are only suitable for cold water diving, or with doubles. A backplate rig is worth considering for any kind of diving. I've used mine in cold green water, on tropical reefs, and even caverns--as have many other people. You imply that a user should have a special need to choose a backplate rig. I find that position absurd. It's just another option, and one that some people find they like better... even in warm water.

I like mine a lot more than the back inflate BCD I started with, which is why I bother to post in these threads. I hope that my experience may help someone else, as others took time to help me when I was new.

If the OP prefers to stick with what he learned in because he's already comfortable with it, that is a perfectly respectable decision. But in bp/w there is some great, safe, affordable, efficient, and practical gear out there. Some of it is also sold by small companies with great customer service. It would be a shame to overlook that option for no good reason.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I'll continue recommending the practical and effective dp/w (deathplate/wing) rig in good conscience.

For every prospective diver/buyer, no matter the circumstances?

Sure. I completely disagree with your assertion that they are only suitable for cold water diving, or with doubles.

Please quote me where you think I assert that bp/w are only for cold water or doubles diving. I don't recall every typing that any gear is only for anything specific.

Let's try another question. Do you think any diver/buyer who choses to buy a jacket BC has made the right choice, or do you instead think they just think they made the right choice and in reality you think they made the wrong choice because they chose a jacket, no matter the circumstances?

 

[Matt S.]

Well, you wrote, "The only divers I know with bp/w bought them for the flexibility of diving doubles or because they used to dive dry." You also wrote that someone needs a good reason to choose a bp/w. So maybe I misunderstood you. Maybe you never said what you thought a b/w was good for but you seem to have made implications.

In answer to your question--no, I don't think everyone in a jacket BC is an idiot. I was pretty clear about that in my last post, when I wrote, "It's [bp/w] just another option, and one that some people find they like better."

Let me try to state my position one last time.

A backplate system is a good and valid choice for any kind of diver, even warm water divers like the OP. I think the OP should check them out, and I think he should ignore anyone who says they are bad for warm water and make up his own mind.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

To be clear, I question non-jacket BC recommendations for infrequent/vacation warm water divers who's certification lds will or did use jacket in class. I'm not saying there are not people in just that situation who would be better in non-jacket. What I am saying is there should be a sound reason, and most of the sound reasons to use bp/w are not sound reasons in the infrequent / vacation warm water/ jacket lds / just or not yet certified scenario.

To be clear, this is what I typed that you do not seem to be clear on. Let me rearrange the words for you;

For infrequent/vacation warm water divers who's certification lds will or did use jacket in class, there should be a sound reason (to recommend a bp/w). Most of the sound reasons to use bp/w are not sound reasons in the infrequent / vacation warm water/ jacket lds / just or not yet certified scenario.

 

[Matt S.]

This is what we fundamentally disagree on then. It's good gear and totally adequate for even that kind of diver. You don't need a special reason to choose a backplate/wing system. Liking how it fits is enough.

A diver who does not want to try something a bit different can stick with the jacket they learned in and they'll get no attitude from me. A diver who has read about backplate rigs and wants to try one should feel free to, even early on.

I think we have to agree to disagree.

I hope the OP hasn't been scared off!

 

[Codyjp]

Many real divers take airplanes to do their diving. All airlines now charge for the first checked bag and charge more for the second checked bag. I see lots of real divers who are not even bringing a mask on their vacation.

Even the recreational divers who are buying gear, real or not, are not in my opinion mostly buying Air2-ish alternates.

What is your definition of a real diver? Certainly not the ones who fall for the Air2-ish high commission sales pitch I hope!

Good idea. I'll forgo the extra $25 for my next dive trip just to spend a 100 or 200 on rental. Thanks for the tip.

For the record I've flown 3 times in 12 months for dive trips and never once have I paid a penny to take all my gear.

The best advice was back on the first page when somebody mentioned to call Tobin at DSS.