DIR- GUE Finding teammates after failing fundamentals

[OrcasC205]

I've watched a *lot* of hours of gue.tv and GUE youtube channel videos. (Almost?) all divers in them use scubapro jet fins. That was my reason to pick them. Not saying it was a great reason. All divers in them also dive drysuits.

I think you hit the nail on the head there -- jet fins are great with drysuits where you are trying to keep your feet down and have the ability to shift air into your legs to counteract them, but other blade type fins are better with wetsuits (especially thin wetsuits.) I use the OMS Slipstreams with my 3mm wetsuit since they have the same blade design as jet fins, but are more neutrally buoyant. Those are the red fins in my profile photo (along with my 3mm wet suit.) For comparison, I used Hollis F1s when drysuit diving in cold water at home.

Back to your original questions: at least here in the Northwest, our very active GUE community is always happy to dive with people who are working on their skills, whether or not they have passed Fundies. I would be surprised if that differs greatly based on geography.

 

[Ayisha]

...To the GUE divers - would you ever dive with someone who failed fundamentals? Or is the failure a "stay away from that person" sign?

I have been diving with a few people who failed Fundies and I absolutely will continue diving with them. If someone is willing to dive, this is when mentors come into play.

One was told that she was dangerous and would not be able to pass in the next 6 months, and would therefore fail. I first went diving with her a year after her course and lots of practice with her GUE-trained husband, and she seemed fine to me while just wreck diving. Four children later, I think diving went on the back burner.

Another was given a provisional after being a really hot mess in all new gear, but timed out after not trying again within 6 months. She continued to practice and improved drastically, and is a great buddy.

Another was completely out of her element also in all new gear, and after incredible patience from the instructor and teammates, and one-on-one with the instructor, was asked to sit out the last part of the last dive. I thought that she must have failed, but the Instructor told her that she completed Part 1.

She went on to also improve drastically once she got more familiar with the gear and is much more prepared for Fundies now.

Something seems to happen after Fundies. The lessons seem to stay with you and the things you struggled with during the course seem to come more naturally with more time in the water. Over time and practice, they almost become effortless. It sounds like you're already experiencing that, like with your back kick.

I had a really hard time keeping my heavy jet fins up. I switched from ultralight seawing nova fins for the class, so the adjustment was hard. I was also using a really thin 3mm wetsuit. I thought I kicked a minimal amount, but we all know the video doesn't lie so on day 4 my instructor showed me how much I was actually kicking and told me I needed to stop.

Just wondering, didn't you have a video debrief after every dive? I'm surprised the kicking wasn't pointed out to you on video after the first dive, and some brainstorming on possible reasons discussed.

When people kick excessively, it's often because they're overweighted and slightly negative, so they keep kicking to stay at a target depth.

When you stop kicking, if you start rotating out of trim, then the ballast position needs to be adjusted. This could be the position of the plate, the tank, weights, fins, etc. or through the composition of the components. You can compensate with body position, but it's easiest to be as close as possible with your rig.

Did you do a static trim test where you become neutral a foot or so above the bottom and stretch out, relax and see if you start rotating? It surprises a lot of people which way they start falling. Then you'll know if you're actually head heavy or foot heavy and can adjust your ballast.

I found jetfins too heavy and uncomfortable with a wetsuit especially, and love my UTD Precision Neutral fins, which are the same size and shape, but 1/2 the weight and with a comfortable foot pocket.

Once you're weighted correctly and balanced from head to toe, it will be much easier to hover motionless in trim. That stable platform will come more naturally with practice and will likely soon be effortless.

You've demonstrated a positive attitude and willingness to learn and practice. Great work!

 

[Angelo Farina]

Thanks for the fin suggestions. II'm pretty confident I'll be able to keep them up in trim with the right body tension after ~20-50 more dives. Especially with a thicker wetsuit and eventually with a drysuit.

The attitude from GUE instructors towards the Novas was ... not too positive . I don't want to speak for instructors but I got the feeling that if someone shows up with Novas they will be strongly encouraged to switch fins.

Please not that I am NOT a GUE instructor ( I am a CMAS *** instructor).
But I am one of the few certified finned swimming instructors.
Se please take what follows with a grain of salt.
First, your attempt to use "body tension" for fixing a trim unbalance problem.
As others already pointed out, you are attempting to use skills for fixing a problem with your equipment. Which is wrong: fix your equipment! When everything is properly balanced you will be able to stay in every attitude without effort (not just horizontal: different environments require different attitudes, and being locked in horizontal-only position is also wrong).
You should be able to keep your body in any orientation (included horizontal) while perfectly relaxed, without effort. Keeping a "body tension" looks very bad to me, as when **** happens and you loose body control you will loose your trim.
The second point is that "one fin for all people and all tasks" is definitely a wrong concept, clashing with the DIR phylosophy.
DIR stands for "do it right".
It means proper behaviour and proper equipment tailored to the task, it does not mean standardising strictly everything for everyone.
Every human is built differently. Legs are different. The optimal fin for you is different from the optimal fin for me.
Furthermore the amount of drag also affects the choice of the optimal fin. I have different fins for snorkeling, for free diving, for recreational warm water scuba diving, and for winter diving in cold water.
I have also a pair short and snappy for the swimming pool...
So I change fins according to the task.
I owned the Jetfins, both the original very elastic ones from Beuchat, and later their worse more rigid copy by Scubapro.
But in the end I switched to other brands and models...
Hower DIR(GUE) also means team diving and some standardization of procedures and equipment across the team.
This inevitably brings to compromises and sub-optimal choices, usually the team must align to procedures and equipment dictated by weaker ring of the chain, the worst diver of the team.
So you must discuss these issues with the other members of your DIR team, and accept to use something not perfectly optimal for you.
This indeed never involves fins, in my opinion, as these are very personal items, and, as said, every diver is different and requires different fins.
When I worked as a finned swimming instructor, a significant part of my job was helping students to select the optimal fins for each of them.
A good instructor should do the same; imposing the same crap, heavy and inefficient old-style Jetfins to every one sounds like a very bad idea, and indicates an instructor with poor knowledge of fins.

PS: you could find interesting what I posted in this other thread: Post in thread 'Scubapro Jet Fins, white, XL, no hole in front of fin' Wanted - Scubapro Jet Fins, white, XL, no hole in front of fin

 

[RedSeaDiver2]

Something to remember about GUE, UTD etc etc - you can be a great diver without doing one of their courses. I started diving in 1984, all of my dive courses were PADI apart from my rebreather courses, and nobody has grumbled about my skills - or lack of. When I was an active instructor I was trusted to teach movie and TV stars, sporting stars etc.

Have I ever felt the need to do a Fundies course - no, because I like to be able to think freely for myself rather than being told that I have to have this equipment, have to dive this way etc. - but each to their own. A dive centre recently tried to get me to come out of instructing retirement and become a RAID instructor for them. Unfortunately RAID didn't suit me due to their rigid thinking about equipment configuration so I declined.

 

[steinbil]

Something to remember about GUE, UTD etc etc - you can be a great diver without doing one of their courses. I started diving in 1984, all of my dive courses were PADI apart from my rebreather courses, and nobody has grumbled about my skills - or lack of. When I was an active instructor I was trusted to teach movie and TV stars, sporting stars etc.

Have I ever felt the need to do a Fundies course - no, because I like to be able to think freely for myself rather than being told that I have to have this equipment, have to dive this way etc. - but each to their own. A dive centre recently tried to get me to come out of instructing retirement and become a RAID instructor for them. Unfortunately RAID didn't suit me due to their rigid thinking about equipment configuration so I declined.

I fail to see how your non-experience with GUE is relevant for the OP asking for advice about his GUE class in the DIR-GUE forum. Just a thought...

 

[JoeTPhilly]

Back to your original questions: at least here in the Northwest, our very active GUE community is always happy to dive with people who are working on their skills, whether or not they have passed Fundies. I would be surprised if that differs greatly based on geography.

The problem I have found is there aren't that many GUE communities. Unfortunately, it seems except for like 4 areas in the USA, there really are not that many active GUE communities Hopefully, the original poster will have success in finding teammates.

 

[Heat Miser]

So overall, I think I did all the skills - basic 5s, multiple s-drills, multiple valve drills, ascents while sharing air, smb deployment. I think had I not tried this hard to keep my feet up and kept doing what I was doing I would've gotten a provisional.

I wouldn’t worry about it, many of us have been in a similar position. Keep diving, practice what they taught you, perhaps get some gear that is more suited to you but conforms to their standards. I use OMS slipstream fins they are neutral.

I found that when I did Fundies the feedback was exceptionally detailed, so it surprises me that your uncertain about what to work on. Perhaps speak to the instructor about what they recommend you do.

And don’t be afraid to try out other instructors at other agencies In the meantime.

In my case I was disappointed with my provisional but if I hadn’t of done Fundies I would never have had the tools / buoyancy to be able to fly a rebreather. I haven’t gone back for a do-over, but I will one day, it certainly didn’t stop me diving nor diving with other people that have certified as Tech 2, Cave 2 and CCR1 under GUE.

I like GUE TV, I use it all the time and the GUE divers, I have met, are some of the most consistently disciplined, I have dived with.

 

[SpeedyJ]

The problem I have found is there aren't that many GUE communities. Unfortunately, it seems except for like 4 areas in the USA, there really are not that many active GUE communities Hopefully, the original poster will have success in finding teammates.

There is an active North East community, and a new but growing Mid-Atlantic community. Many are loosely organized through Facebook groups, but all it takes is a post "Anyone want to go diving?"

 

[JoeTPhilly]

There is an active North East community, and a new but growing Mid-Atlantic community. Many are loosely organized through Facebook groups, but all it takes is a post "Anyone want to go diving?"

Do you happen to have a link?

 

[O-ring]

Don't worry about it. Back in the day nobody passed fundies and there were no cards for it. I know times have changed, but back then you basically wallowed around in the quarry making mud angels trying to do whatever skills you were supposed to be doing or WWII dogfighting trying to avoid running into each other while sharing gas and then at the end of the day came away with a solid idea of what you ought to be doing and what you needed to work on to get where you wanted to go.

IMO, Jets are fine fins. Been diving them for over 20 years. However, I started doing a lot of warm water diving in the past few years and it was a shocking reminder how negative they are when you dive in either a thin exposure suit or no exposure suit. You can certainly tweak your body position/fulcrum and angle of knee bend, etc. to make them work, but there are other options out there that are of similar design that are a lot less negatively buoyant. I switched to eddys for 3mm or skin trips both for that reason and also they pack lighter in my luggage.