Fin buying help...

[IndigoBlue]

Hmmm ... two days and still no response ...

So shall we take it that your lack of response is due to the fact that you have no real experience with the products you so strongly criticize?



My definition of gullible is someone develops strong opinions about things with which they have no actual experience.

Nothing personal fellas ... but the folks who pose questions about products in here deserve honest responses, not rhetoric based on what you heard in a classroom or read on the Internet.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Actually my lack of response is due to my having a day job, in an office, where I have do to real stuff, not just surf the web all day long.

I have tried ScubaPro split fins, yes. It would not be wise to buy these expensive overpriced items without trying them first. The do not give you any emergency thrust, when you need it. They are fine for long gentle underwater swims if you have weak legs.

I do not need long freediving fins nor short split fins. Ordinary ScubaPro jets are fine for me.

And I do not often agree with Boogie, but I must say, he is right on this score. So I must agree with him: split fins are a tax on the gullible.

That expression actually comes from a centuries old French expression:

a lottery is a tax on idiots.

 

[Boogie711]

Hmmm ... two days and still no response ...

So shall we take it that your lack of response is due to the fact that you have no real experience with the products you so strongly criticize?



My definition of gullible is someone develops strong opinions about things with which they have no actual experience.

Nothing personal fellas ... but the folks who pose questions about products in here deserve honest responses, not rhetoric based on what you heard in a classroom or read on the Internet.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

BS nothing personal! I stumble across this thread again only to discover not only am I being attacked, but you don't have the courtesy to PM me that you're attacking me, and THEN you have the audacity to explain my non-response as a cover job?

That's low-ball and you know it. I expect better of you. I've never said anything to you personally to warrant this kind of treatment and you know it. Bush league at best.

Secondly, YES, I've tried split fins. It was hardly a scientific test, but I have tried some Apollo Bio-fins, Scubapro Twin Jets (in REAL life), and a few other brands in the pool... and I hated both. I'd be more than happy to try others, but frankly, why bother?

Furthermore, if you're not satisfied with the results of that highly subjective opinion, I can go with the LONGTERM continued testimonials from both friends in real life and testimonials on this board - who have statements like "once I tried Jets (or Turtles, etc.) I wanted to E-Bay the splits.

AND I said if you just want to flutter kick in a straight line, go right ahead and split your fins. I believe in being able to back up, turn around, maintain precise control of my trim, etc. It's a heck of a lot easier to do that in paddle fins. There's a reason the tech community laughs at split fins. I'll bank on their collective experience and let them do my arguing for me.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Actually my lack of response is due to my having a day job, in an office, where I have do to real stuff, not just surf the web all day long.

I have tried ScubaPro split fins, yes. It would not be wise to buy these expensive overpriced items without trying them first. The do not give you any emergency thrust, when you need it. They are fine for long gentle underwater swims if you have weak legs.

I do not need long freediving fins nor short split fins. Ordinary ScubaPro jets are fine for me.

And I do not often agree with Boogie, but I must say, he is right on this score. So I must agree with him: split fins are a tax on the gullible.

That expression actually comes from a centuries old French expression:

a lottery is a tax on idiots.

Thank you ... and how many dives did you do on the fins before coming to the conclusions you posted? One dive ... or some time trying something out in a pool ... is barely time for you to decide you don't like it, much less develop a strong opinion about who it's right or wrong for. It takes several dives to develop the muscle memory to use any fin properly ... particularly when you're used to something radically different.

I have no issue with the opinions you choose to hold. I do take exception to the commentary you made ... and I base that on having put hundreds of dives on the fins you're talking about, and on working regularly with new divers who are trying to develop good kicking technique in those same fins.

FWIW - the statements you and Boogie made are simply wrong. Here in the NW, lots of people who are neither weak nor gullible use their splits very effectively ... as much so as their counterparts in Jets and Turtles. Both styles have their strengths and weaknesses ... and which is right for you depends a great deal on personal preference and diving style.

That's the simple, straightforward answer to the question ... without all the useless judgemental commentary.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

BS nothing personal! I stumble across this thread again only to discover not only am I being attacked, but you don't have the courtesy to PM me that you're attacking me, and THEN you have the audacity to explain my non-response as a cover job?

That's low-ball and you know it. I expect better of you. I've never said anything to you personally to warrant this kind of treatment and you know it. Bush league at best.

Secondly, YES, I've tried split fins. It was hardly a scientific test, but I have tried some Apollo Bio-fins, Scubapro Twin Jets (in REAL life), and a few other brands in the pool... and I hated both. I'd be more than happy to try others, but frankly, why bother?

Furthermore, if you're not satisfied with the results of that highly subjective opinion, I can go with the LONGTERM continued testimonials from both friends in real life and testimonials on this board - who have statements like "once I tried Jets (or Turtles, etc.) I wanted to E-Bay the splits.

AND I said if you just want to flutter kick in a straight line, go right ahead and split your fins. I believe in being able to back up, turn around, maintain precise control of my trim, etc. It's a heck of a lot easier to do that in paddle fins. There's a reason the tech community laughs at split fins. I'll bank on their collective experience and let them do my arguing for me.

And thank you Boogie ... I wasn't trying to attack you, simply establish what you based your rather strongly worded criticism on. Now we know ... you tried a few models in the pool.

Once again ... I have no issue with your opinion. I think, however, if you're going to offer strong criticism of a product (particularly calling those who use them "gullible"), you should back it up with some info on your actual experience.

The tech community that I know doesn't "laugh" at split fins ... at least the mature ones (the ones I choose to dive with) recognize that they have a place in the recreational community, but are not the right tool for the rigors of technical diving.

There's a huge difference ... lots of recreational gear isn't suitable for technical diving. That doesn't necessarily make it a poor choice for the recreational diver.

Now we have a more clear picture of where you're coming from ... that's all I was asking for.

And for both of you ... all other "reasons" aside, you've been quite active on this board the past two days, but for some reason chose not to answer my query until I raised it again. Then you both responded within minutes of my post. That tells me that you were, indeed available to respond whenever you chose. So please, spare me your indignation ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[IndigoBlue]

Thank you ... and how many dives did you do on the fins before coming to the conclusions you posted? One dive ... or some time trying something out in a pool ... is barely time for you to decide you don't like it, much less develop a strong opinion about who it's right or wrong for. It takes several dives to develop the muscle memory to use any fin properly ... particularly when you're used to something radically different.
(Grateful Diver)

This statement can best be described as a demonstration of the fallacy of argument ad nauseum.

I have no issue with the opinions you choose to hold. I do take exception to the commentary you made ... and I base that on having put hundreds of dives on the fins you're talking about, and on working regularly with new divers who are trying to develop good kicking technique in those same fins.
(Grateful Diver)

Well its a free country. Remember July 4th 1776? The American Revolution? The First Amendment (1789)? Commentaries happen.

FWIW - the statements you and Boogie made are simply wrong. Here in the NW, lots of people who are neither weak nor gullible use their splits very effectively ... as much so as their counterparts in Jets and Turtles. Both styles have their strengths and weaknesses ... and which is right for you depends a great deal on personal preference and diving style.
(Grateful Diver)

This statement can best be described as a demonstration of the fallacy of affirming the consequent.

That's the simple, straightforward answer to the question ... without all the useless judgemental commentary.

There is a chicken-or-egg problem with this statement. If commentary is useless, then does that statement not also indict your own commentary? It must, at least in a perfectly logical world.


By the way, in the Great Northwest, I would expect that you would all mostly wear long-bladed freediving-like fins, not split fins, due to the currents.

 

[Boogie711]

splits.... are not the right tool for the rigors of technical diving.

So, if Jets and Turtles are appropriate for the rigors of technical diving, does that mean that recreational divers who DO use split fins are paying more money to get a lesser performance fin?

Because it seems to me that's what you just said there.

[sarcasm]Oh, and by the way - I'll be out of the office for the next few hours. Please don't try to accuse me of ducking an issue between now and sometime Saturday morning, OK?[/sarcasm]

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

This statement can best be described as a demonstration of the fallacy of argument ad nauseum.

Would you care to explain that in English?

Well its a free country. Remember July 4th 1776? The American Revolution? The First Amendment (1789)? Commentaries happen.

Yep, and you're welcome to your opinion ... but given the nature of the original query (a new diver wanting some real information about different styles of fin) I think it incumbent that those of us providing said information should also give some clue as to what we're basing our opinions on. That's all I was asking for.

This statement can best be described as a demonstration of the fallacy of affirming the consequent.

Again, I'm not sure what this means ... nor what bearing it has on the conversation.

There is a chicken-or-egg problem with this statement. If commentary is useless, then does that statement not also indict your own commentary? It must, at least in a perfectly logical world.

The commentary I'm labelling as "useless" is in reference to the use of terms like "gullible", "farce", and "weak". This useless information for the simple reason that the vast majority of people I know who use the products in question are neither gullible nor weak ... nor is the product in question a farce. In reality, it's simply one you don't like. Your opinion would be far more credible if you simply stated it as such.

By the way, in the Great Northwest, I would expect that you would all mostly wear long-bladed freediving-like fins, not split fins, due to the currents.

Now THAT'S funny ... I don't know where you dive, but it's obviously not in the northwest. Very few people around here use long-bladed freediving-like fins ... and those who do usually cannot tell you why they chose them, except that somebody recommended them.

By far the most popular fin in the Puget Sound area are splits ... with Twin-Jets and Biofins being the two most widely used varieties. Amongst the tech community it's either Jets or Turtles ... and even a large number of those folks also have a pair of splits somewhere in their repertoire for certain types of diving.

It's a fallacy that splits are useless in current. I can only imagine this is something that went out on the Internet and was propogated by those who wanted to believe it. In truth, they provide better power in current than my Turtles ... and this is based on extensive personal use of both fins in similar conditions. If these fins were useless in current, they wouldn't be the most popular fin in this area ... current is something we deal with daily, and the number one condition we take into consideration when planning a dive.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

splits.... are not the right tool for the rigors of technical diving.

So, if Jets and Turtles are appropriate for the rigors of technical diving, does that mean that recreational divers who DO use split fins are paying more money to get a lesser performance fin?

Because it seems to me that's what you just said there.

No, it means exactly what I said ... that recreational divers don't typically require the same kind of equipment that technical divers use. It's a fallacy to refer to something as lesser performance simply because it's not the same as what you like. Both blades and splits have their strengths and weaknesses. FWIW - you said that splits are useless in current, when in fact the exact opposite is true. I can deal with current far more effectively in Biofins than I can in Turtles. But that doesn't mean the Turtles are ineffective in current ... only that the Biofins do it better. I can maneuver with more precision in the Turtles than in the Biofins. But that doesn't mean I can't maneuver effectively in the Biofins ... only that the Turtles do it better.

Which you choose has nothing to do with lesser performance ... it has to do with what aspects of performance are more important to you, the individual diver.

[sarcasm]Oh, and by the way - I'll be out of the office for the next few hours. Please don't try to accuse me of ducking an issue between now and sometime Saturday morning, OK?[/sarcasm]

As I said, spare me ... you made 10 posts to this board between the time I asked you the question and the time I brought it up a second time. You were here, responding within just a few minutes of my bringing it up a second time. You had time and enough to spare to respond to my first query ... which I felt was politely worded. And in no way have I attacked you ... in fact Boogie, provocation is your style, not mine. So please, don't try to convince me you weren't aware of the post I made two days ago. We both know how these boards work, who's on them, and when ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Uncle Pug]

The issue of which fin (split or blade) performs better in current depends on the diver's leg strength/conditioning.

If you are stronger you will be able to get more performance out of a blade than a split.

 

[IndigoBlue]

The issue of which fin (split or blade) performs better in current depends on the diver's leg strength/conditioning.

If you are stronger you will be able to get more performance out of a blade than a split.

I have never once read any of Uncle Pug's posts that I disagree with. So far he is as constant as the Rock of Gibraltar.