Feinstein introduces legislation to improve passenger vessel safety

[drrich2]

Here's a real world example relevant to recent concerns from the Conception disaster, since the 2'nd escape path is what's likely to be most expensive.

1.) I've been on Truth Aquatic's boat the Vision, which from what I've read is very similar in layout to the Conception. From the rear of the boat, walk off the dive deck into the salon/common area, through that, and you encounter a stairwell down - you can drop down to the bunk area, or to showers. That was the main entry/exit. Many people consider the other exit, via a hatch over a top bunk if I understand correctly, to be insufficient as a backup escape route in an emergency.

2.) So what we really want is another sizable stairway up from the other (rear) end of the bunk room to an outside area, rather than into the salon. Perhaps it could open onto the middle of the dive deck section of the boat.

Those of you with some idea what retrofitting boats costs, can you give even a wild ballpark guess as to what putting such a new escape route into the Vision would cost? How long it would take?

Perhaps the answers to those questions would help gauge the likelihood of such a requirement driving an op. out of business?

Richard.

P.S.: Somewhat related, have any of you or people you know personally passed on booking a live-aboard trip because it lacked such a 2nd emergency exit, now that you're aware of the Conception tragedy?

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

2.) So what we really want is another sizable stairway up from the other (rear) end of the bunk room to an outside area, rather than into the salon. Perhaps it could open onto the middle of the dive deck section of the boat.

Those of you with some idea what retrofitting boats costs, can you give even a wild ballpark guess as to what putting such a new escape route into the Vision would cost? How long it would take?

I’ve never been on the Vision or Conception but it’s possible (more than likely) that the aft end of the bunkroom butts up to the engine room bulkhead so cutting that out and putting a stairway up through the center and exiting into the center section of the dive deck wouldn’t be possible. In order to put in an aft stairway you’d have eliminate a few bunks on one side and run the stairway up through the aft galley space and the exit would be at the back of the house at deck level. You would also lose some galley seating area. The stairway hall would have to be sealed off from the galley with a wall.
Cost? Have no idea. $150K maybe?
It would have to be designed by a marine architect and completed by a competent yard. Good boat guys are hard to find.

 

[Bob DBF]

According to the article the “sweeping regulations” would; “The legislation would require small passenger vessels to have at least two escape exits, strengthen standards for fire alarm systems and create mandatory safety rules for handling and storage of phones, cameras and other electronic devices with lithium-ion batteries.”

There were two escape exits. Most of what they say is in the legislation was addressed in the USCG bulletin, and changes in regulation will follow, if necessary, after the NTSB makes their report. Of course we don't know what else will be in the legislation, as passenger safety on boats is a large subject and could include all boats regardless of whether the passenger is paying or not. And in order to pass it who knows what deal will have to be struck, once politicians get started...

2.) So what we really want is another sizable stairway up from the other (rear) end of the bunk room to an outside area, rather than into the salon. Perhaps it could open onto the middle of the dive deck section of the boat.

In order to go from the bunkroom to the middle of the dive deck, one would have to open up a watertight bulkhead (USCG hates openings in watertight bulkheads) and probably rearranging the engine room or removing equipment to make room for a passage. If you look at the layout of the Truth, the first Truth Aquatics boat, it has the aft of the salon open to the back deck and the bunk room exit comes up at that opening, inside the salon a few steps from the back deck.

I'm not a big fan of making sweeping changes before there is as good an understanding of what happened on the Conception as possible, and can make sure the solution at least addresses the cause.


Bob

 

[Schwob]

Somewhat related, have any of you or people you know personally passed on booking a live-aboard trip because it lacked such a 2nd emergency exit, now that you're aware of the Conception tragedy?

Yes to passed. No to the exact reasoning you mention. For my wife, what did it was the RSA Disaster even so most got out. (In big Parts because she does not follow any dive news and only learned about the Constellation after she already freaked over the RSA) What did her in was that our son was on that boat (well, me too, but...) and more importantly maybe that everybody that made it had to jump of the deck at Night and do so w/o a life vest. That thought now really has her freaked out and gives her a lot to think about her bare bones swimming skills. So our planned trip to Egypt (from Europe) in January got nixed... and our next dive trip ... in due time will be shore diving or via day boats. Once her mind settled on „freaked“ It made no difference to her that the dive boat we would have booked on gave good answers to asked safety questions and that we would have booked an above deck cabin and that I would have brought an inflatable life vest for her to wear at all times on the boat if she so wishes... hopefully not donned, but in the hip pouch... (it would be without the cartridge because of flying, just oral inflate). So, anyway, no sense in diving with her for now until she chooses to...

 

[Marie13]

Yes to passed. No to the exact reasoning you mention. For my wife, what did it was the RSA Disaster even so most got out. (In big Parts because she does not follow any dive news and only learned about the Constellation after she already freaked over the RSA) What did her in was that our son was on that boat (well, me too, but...) and more importantly maybe that everybody that made it had to jump of the deck at Night and do so w/o a life vest. That thought now really has her freaked out and gives her a lot to think about her bare bones swimming skills. So our planned trip to Egypt (from Europe) in January got nixed... and our next dive trip ... in due time will be shore diving or via day boats. Once her mind settled on „freaked“ It made no difference to her that the dive boat we would have booked on gave good answers to asked safety questions and that we would have booked an above deck cabin and that I would have brought an inflatable life vest for her to wear at all times on the boat if she so wishes... hopefully not donned, but in the hip pouch... (it would be without the cartridge because of flying, just oral inflate). So, anyway, no sense in diving with her for now until she chooses to...

Wow.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

There were two escape exits. Most of what they say is in the legislation was addressed in the USCG bulletin, and changes in regulation will follow, if necessary, after the NTSB makes their report. Of course we don't know what else will be in the legislation, as passenger safety on boats is a large subject and could include all boats regardless of whether the passenger is paying or not. And in order to pass it who knows what deal will have to be struck, once politicians get started...



In order to go from the bunkroom to the middle of the dive deck, one would have to open up a watertight bulkhead (USCG hates openings in watertight bulkheads) and probably rearranging the engine room or removing equipment to make room for a passage. If you look at the layout of the Truth, the first Truth Aquatics boat, it has the aft of the salon open to the back deck and the bunk room exit comes up at that opening, inside the salon a few steps from the back deck.

I'm not a big fan of making sweeping changes before there is as good an understanding of what happened on the Conception as possible, and can make sure the solution at least addresses the cause.


Bob

That’s the only thing that scares me is if politicians get involved is the possibility that it won’t just be charter boats involved but perhaps commercial fishing boats too where there are employees or crew involved. For instance, in Bodega Bay as you know, it’s a big commercial fishing port. There are dozens of 30’-50’ older Monterey fishing boats that are used for crab, salmon, black cod, albacore, black cod, etc. most of those old wooden boats have a V berth down below in the front of the boat and there is one way in and out, up the stairs through the wheel house, through the galley, and out the back door to the work deck. Many or most of those boats do not have a front hatch, never did and probably never will. Usually there is a big anchor winch mounted on the foredeck and below that is the chain locker.

 

[BRT]

I wonder how people would feel if the over road trucking industry hadn’t been regulated, things like number of times a tire can be re-treaded? Sure treads come off and you still see them along the roads but not nearly as much as there used to be, break inspection and testing, hours driving before rest requirements? All burdensome on the trucking industry but I hate to think of what would happen on today’s roads with dollar driven mindsets.

To dismiss the desire to make things safer as “politics” is asinine unless you can imagine the family survivors coming to you and you saying , go away the regulations are to burdensome for the boat business. On the other hand I don’t want to see regulations that don’t matter or won’t help, it seems better egress that is clearly marked, smoke detectors and some control over battery charging are not only sensible but not overly burdensome. These proposed changes may never be shown to make a difference because the incidence of out of control fires is already so low but...

Things have changed on the boats and one of the biggest is the battery issue and we may never know if this was the problem but if a few things come under scrutiny and it never happens again, I for one don’t think that’s a good outcome.

How many times can a truck tire be recapped? When you find the answer to that what does it say about the lack of road alligators now?

 

[BRT]

One important difference between passenger vessels and cars is that cars maintain their overall crash test rating over the vehicle's life. The safety of a ship requires continuous updating, training, maintenance, record keeping, drills, replacement of equipment with expiration dates and test dates, cleaning, prevention of fire load, officer licenses, manning requirements, and so forth. A vessel that is completely in compliance one day, won't be the next day unless the master continues to maintain all the systems, procedures, etc. up to snuff.

Do you believe that age and rust have no affect on metal strength, seatbelt strength, restraint systems reliability and so on?

 

[BRT]

May be I missed something, is the NTSB final report out? It seems to me that writing legislation and changing USCG regulations is a bit premature if there is no determination of what actually happened. It seems the preliminary report and USCG bulletin should suffice untill more is known. Why start rebuilding a fleet when it may have to be redone differently once more is known.

Not to be overlooked, is that the sweeping changes legislated may very well doom the dive/fishing pasengers boat industry. USCG regulation balances the need for the maritime services and infrastructure we have with that of safety, legislation has no need to find any balance, if the law is too demanding the industry ends.



Bob

But....we have to do something!

 

[Bob DBF]

That’s the only thing that scares me is if politicians get involved is the possibility that it won’t just be charter boats involved but perhaps commercial fishing boats too where there are employees or crew involved.

Or they decide all passengers should be safe, and include pleasure boats as well as passenger for hire.

Or in the words of Gideon J. Tucker, "No man's life, liberty or property are safe while the Legislature is in session."


Bob