Feb 19 2017 Cozumel diving fatality

[mediumone]

witnessed the conduct of a DM who was not representative of the company policy My point is that there are countless decent operators in Cozumel and no doubt hundreds of very responsible DM's

You've illustrated one of my soapbox issues.

There are scores of threads and hundreds of posts discussing "the best" ops. Unless the DM is also a match along with the op, it doesn't matter how well known, respected, renowned or whatever, the op is.

We left a highly regarded shop because the DM and we just weren't on the same page. In our case it had nothing to do with safety, just style.

Back to the topic though, every once in a while I learn something new, or am reminded to take care of something that I know I should be doing;

We've left our noisemakers in the bag, in our room, or even at home for the last time.

 

[Ravenware]

To all of you that commented, thank you for your thoughts, input and encouragement. I can say for certain, there was no sign of life for the 5-7 minutes from when I first saw the tank to when we tried to bring her up. And, I think we would have noticed her when she was sinking if it had happened recently. Visibility was pretty good up to that point.

She had air in her tank when we got to her. Her reg was not in her mouth. She was kneeling on a patch of sand, there were no signs of struggle, no abrasions, Sand was not displaced. The article I read said she had a stroke. It looked she just sunk down to the reef and landed with arms out, head down.

What I have heard from others, her DM had her ascend because she was not feeling well. He sent her up alone and finished the dive with his group. He may have escorted her up a ways, but he left her. I was under the impression that the DM and group were already in their boat and looking for her when we surfaced, this came from conversations that happened when the first boat reached us. We were told a diver was missing and they asked if we found a male or female.

I do not know for certain, but because of how she was positioned on the reef, I suspect she had a stroke while doing her safety stop, or in the open water, maybe even on the surface and waiting for a boat. May have passed immediately, and sunk to the bottom.

I had heard that her inflator hose and/or BC was leaking or faulty, that is why he disconnected it. My husband tried to reattach it numerous times, and tried to manually inflate the BC. Was not successful with either. Last thing we tried was fully inflating both our BCs and trying to pull her up.

But honestly, when we got to her it was obvious she had been gone awhile. I reported what I could to DAN, no one asked us for a statement.

 

[tankdives]

Two things I've learned about scuba trip operators in communities where diving is an economic driver, they:

• tend to clam up when someone dies. They claim death details are nobody's business and how dare anyone believe the facts should be disseminated.
• tend to expect divers to know — by osmosis, I suppose — what exactly the dive master's responsibilities are when a diver gets into trouble underwater.

NEVER — not in my PADI training courses to the rescue level and not on ANY dive boat — has the precise role of a DM been explained to me. Nor have I ever seen a scuba operator post this information on the company website.

So, the industry expects divers to know what they've never been told.

Yes, we're made to sign liability waivers saying we're responsible for ourselves. Legalese aside, I'm learning that operators have NO responsibility to divers. They just don't advertise or talk about it. Bad for business, I guess. Here's what they won't tell you:

• What exactly is the DM's role in assisting divers in trouble. (None, apparently. They can choose to assist if they want to).
• Not everyone has a friend/spouse to dive with. If you go on a dive trip unaccompanied, the operator may or may not buddy you up with someone else on the boat. That's also not their responsibility. Never is this stated clearly and plainly on their websites. Thus, an illusion is created that buddy diving will happen. Isn't this what we're taught at dive school?

Dive operators won't tell you this, so I will:

• Don't ever think a DM is going to assist you if you get into trouble underwater. This may or may not happen. When you sign the liability waiver, everything is on you.
• Don't expect a dive operator to communicate explicitly what their safety practices are. Not on their website or on their dive boat. You have to demand the information. Expect equivocation.
• Take a self-reliant diver course.
• Understand diving is NOT as safe as the industry would have you believe.
• Buy a pony bottle and learn how to use it. Supply your own secondary air source.
• Dive operators are in the business of making money, first and foremost.

Would any of the dive operators on this thread care to post their safety practices when it comes to DM responsibilities and buddying?

Alternatively, I'm a journalist and plan to dive in Cozumel in early April. Would be happy to meet and interview any DM or dive operator who has something to say about what I've posted.

 

[gfaith]

@Ravenware .. Thanks for your response again and thanks for letting DAN know. What you have done could save a life in the future.

 

[ChrisM]

Well, this thread certainly has taken some turns.... Just random thoughts, I've dived Coz about 10 x, so have some familiarity with it. 1,000 dives in various locations around the world from benign to gnarly conditions, I'm just going to say my experience does not jive with tankdiver's experience. As for Coz, I dive with Christi's op and, maybe it's because I've dived so much with her primary DM Pedro Pablo, both in a buddy team and as a solo, in my view it's perfectly clear what his job is. Show us the beauty of Cozumel, and keep us safe to the best of his ability.

As for this sad incident, there's just too much information that no one knows that makes any armchair analysis of what happened and what the DM/Op/Group/diver should have done worthless at this point, that's just my opinion. Speculation doesn't do any good, and does not allow us to learn from what happened so that we can be safer divers. We don't know what she conveyed to the DM, or how, or whether she made the surface or not, etc etc. Disconnected LP hose might or might not be a big deal, certainly no one here knows in this context. But I do subscribe to the snowball theory, in that (again, my opinion) most accidents are the result of the cumulative effects of many small problems that can't ultimately be overcome.

I'm sure many of us have been escorted to the line/ss when running lower than our group, or have done the same with others, or have dived solo, or have allowed loved ones out of our sight/reach for extended periods, or made minor equipment adjustments for the sake of a dive. I know I have done all of that. I've also called dives under many of those same conditions. There but for the grace of god I guess.

Prayers to the deceased and her family, and those that participated in the search and recovery. Ravenware, I read your story and couldn't imagine coming across that scene underwater, and don't question for a second you or your husband's actions. Thank you for sharing that.

 

[BertStevens]

Two things I've learned about scuba trip operators in communities where diving is an economic driver, they:

• tend to clam up when someone dies. They claim death details are nobody's business and how dare anyone believe the facts should be disseminated.
• tend to expect divers to know — by osmosis, I suppose — what exactly the dive master's responsibilities are when a diver gets into trouble underwater.

NEVER — not in my PADI training courses to the rescue level and not on ANY dive boat — has the precise role of a DM been explained to me. Nor have I ever seen a scuba operator post this information on the company website.

So, the industry expects divers to know what they've never been told.

Yes, we're made to sign liability waivers saying we're responsible for ourselves. Legalese aside, I'm learning that operators have NO responsibility to divers. They just don't advertise or talk about it. Bad for business, I guess. Here's what they won't tell you:

• What exactly is the DM's role in assisting divers in trouble. (None, apparently. They can choose to assist if they want to).
• Not everyone has a friend/spouse to dive with. If you go on a dive trip unaccompanied, the operator may or may not buddy you up with someone else on the boat. That's also not their responsibility. Never is this stated clearly and plainly on their websites. Thus, an illusion is created that buddy diving will happen. Isn't this what we're taught at dive school?

Dive operators won't tell you this, so I will:

• Don't ever think a DM is going to assist you if you get into trouble underwater. This may or may not happen. When you sign the liability waiver, everything is on you.
• Don't expect a dive operator to communicate explicitly what their safety practices are. Not on their website or on their dive boat. You have to demand the information. Expect equivocation.
• Take a self-reliant diver course.
• Understand diving is NOT as safe as the industry would have you believe.
• Buy a pony bottle and learn how to use it. Supply your own secondary air source.
• Dive operators are in the business of making money, first and foremost.

Would any of the dive operators on this thread care to post their safety practices when it comes to DM responsibilities and buddying?

Alternatively, I'm a journalist and plan to dive in Cozumel in early April. Would be happy to meet and interview any DM or dive operator who has something to say about what I've posted.

This would make an EXCELLENT spin-off post!

 

[Brianh1]

Ravenware, I'm glad you are OK. I was on the boat that returned you to Swordfish and you were clearly very shaken by your experience. Rumours are flying round here in Cozumel about the accident and I suspect the stroke theory is on of them as an autopsy usually takes a few days.

 

[peeweediver]

A few comment on "tankdive's" comments. I agree with all of your points. However, I have never thought, nor do I teach my students, that a guide is trained and able to respond to your underwater issues. I have been in places where the guides are not DM's nor even trained as rescue divers. They are guides who find critters for you and show you the site. The worst scenario is someone who is only able to buddy with the guide because that's like having no buddy. They have other things to do. In many places showing critters is the most important responsibility and all others on the dive want it that way.
We make it a point on all boats we're on to offer a single diver to buddy with us. I'd like to think I treat my newfound buddy like my other buddy, usually my wife. No, not the beginning of a joke. Anyway, I believe this has much more to do with how we as an industry now allow folks to be certified. It has less to do with money grubbing operators. As a fill-in instructor for two local shops in the Chicago area, we only teach confined water over either a five or seven session experience. Knowledge review classes are the same timeframe unless the student did E-learning. Open water is the same everywhere....I hope. I have seen the alarming rise of, "I'll certify you in a weekend for cheap" operations. When I see these outfits at the quarry for OW, it is scary what goes on. Yet, their students end the 4 dives with a c-card. Taking longer to work with students allows you to discuss what really happens on trips. I expressly tell my students that the professionals and guides staffing the boat are not their safety line. I tell them that they and their buddy are responsible for their lives, their safety and their experience. I really believe that the overzealous march to certify the world has led to an environment of assembly line certifications which allows for folks to end up having to rely on a DM who may not even be a DM. I am not saying that happened here, just in general. I know that this board has many very excellent shops and instructors logging in on many subjects to add their expertise. However, if we're honest, we see things that make us pause as the industry seems to be rocketing to certify in lightening speed and competing with cost cutting measures that makes things less safe than we should expect. Standards are one thing, explaining the way things really work takes more time.
Sorry for the long rant, but in this case, I can't lay the blame on "money grubbing" operators if there even is blame. Sometimes bad things happen. If anything, maybe we learned, if you are leading a dive, call it, signal abort the dive to the group and get your distressed diver ON THE BOAT at all costs. We've all been on dives that have been aborted for one reason or another and never been upset if someone was sick or needed help.

Rob

 

[tankdives]

A few comment on "tankdive's" comments. I agree with all of your points. However, I have never thought, nor do I teach my students, that a guide is trained and able to respond to your underwater issues. I have been in places where the guides are not DM's nor even trained as rescue divers. They are guides who find critters for you and show you the site. The worst scenario is someone who is only able to buddy with the guide because that's like having no buddy. They have other things to do. In many places showing critters is the most important responsibility and all others on the dive want it that way.
We make it a point on all boats we're on to offer a single diver to buddy with us. I'd like to think I treat my newfound buddy like my other buddy, usually my wife. No, not the beginning of a joke. Anyway, I believe this has much more to do with how we as an industry now allow folks to be certified. It has less to do with money grubbing operators. As a fill-in instructor for two local shops in the Chicago area, we only teach confined water over either a five or seven session experience. Knowledge review classes are the same timeframe unless the student did E-learning. Open water is the same everywhere....I hope. I have seen the alarming rise of, "I'll certify you in a weekend for cheap" operations. When I see these outfits at the quarry for OW, it is scary what goes on. Yet, their students end the 4 dives with a c-card. Taking longer to work with students allows you to discuss what really happens on trips. I expressly tell my students that the professionals and guides staffing the boat are not their safety line. I tell them that they and their buddy are responsible for their lives, their safety and their experience. I really believe that the overzealous march to certify the world has led to an environment of assembly line certifications which allows for folks to end up having to rely on a DM who may not even be a DM. I am not saying that happened here, just in general. I know that this board has many very excellent shops and instructors logging in on many subjects to add their expertise. However, if we're honest, we see things that make us pause as the industry seems to be rocketing to certify in lightening speed and competing with cost cutting measures that makes things less safe than we should expect. Standards are one thing, explaining the way things really work takes more time.
Sorry for the long rant, but in this case, I can't lay the blame on "money grubbing" operators if there even is blame. Sometimes bad things happen. If anything, maybe we learned, if you are leading a dive, call it, signal abort the dive to the group and get your distressed diver ON THE BOAT at all costs. We've all been on dives that have been aborted for one reason or another and never been upset if someone was sick or needed help.

Rob

Good points. I wish more shops and operators would communicate that the DM is NOT your saviour or lifeline.

 

[EcoDivingPlaya]

If you have to ask then the answer is no. But it was just a question wondering what your role in this event was.

And you have all the answers, do you? Shoot the messenger often when what you read doesn't fit your business needs, do you?

The safety of those who'll visit us in the future and who put their lives in our hands (or so they are led to believe by amazing website promises...) and entrust us to supervise them as they visit our great reefs would be better served should you direct your curiosity at why practically every "local" diver fatality official investigation ends with sweeping a chain of greed, poor training and impunity under the seedy carpet of "local" tourism operators.

Or, with blaming a diver who can no longer defend him/herself, instead of valuing their lives at the next $100 USD kerching-ed for their two-tank dive (plus the $2 of hardly ever paid back marine park fee)...