FBI Collecting your Information

[landlocked]

Originally posted by awap
If you think you have some better ideas, lets take a look.

The answer is obvious. Rearm the general public. I mean could you see someone with a BOX CUTTER commandering a stagecoach in the old west?. The truly sad thing is that Americans have lost the right to defend themselves, their country and their freedom. Last year in Utah a man with a gun took a bunch of folkes hostage. When it became evident that the man was going to hurt someone, a citizen with a concelled weapon put a stop to it. Was the man treated as a hero? No. He was considered a bad guy who probably should be in jail. Yet what had he done? If the employees and general public last September had not been trained and lulled into passive toleration of a crime being committed, terrorist would never have gotten any planes to their intended targets. We make it to easy. We train people to allow crime and terrorism. The answer is not to throw billions of dollars to, and give away our privacy to the FBI but to have the American public share in providing for their own saftey. Or something like that.

 

[rstone]

Originally posted by landlocked
If the employees and general public last September had not been trained and lulled into passive toleration of a crime being committed, terrorist would never have gotten any planes to their intended targets.

This is a little off topic, but what I found interesting is that these terrorist could of easily charted a private commerical Jet from a smaller airport, and not be subject to the same screening process as at a regular airport, and still accomplished the same thing without ever stepping foot inside a Airline Terminal.

Ryan

 

[Windknot]

Okie dokie forgive me if I ramble, these are a series of thoughts I have on this topic.

And YES, for the record....I am in Law Enforcement, I am Big Brother, and contrary to unpopular opinion....we are not THE NEW WORLD ORDER.

Now on to the musings.....

1. I have several FBI acquaintances, and LDS workers, instructors and patrons. Of all of these that I have spoken with....and WHAT NO ONE HAS ASKED ABOUT IS how the investigation has been handled - JUST LIKE ANY OTHER CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION. There are no jackbooted thugs showing up at your local diveshop toting MAC-10 submachine guns. These are professional investigators doing thier jobs. They are not demanding that the shops release your information, THEY CANT DO THAT WITHOUT A WARRANT...there's a little something called the 4th Amendment of the Constitution of the United States that (I will paraphrase): All citizens shall be free of unreasonable government intrusion (Search and Seizure) into your homes,persons and papers without probable cause and without a warrant specifying that which is to be searched or seized.

- What does all of this mean at it's most ELEMENTAL level?
A. The FBI is doing the job they were mandated to do
B. They are asking....not demanding the information that we all keep hearing about.
C. The Shops, Instructors, Training agencies have no LEGAL obligation to hand that information to the requesting agency.

2. There has been a great deal of rhetoric from our fellow divers about the loss of civil liberties, invasion of privacies etc committed upon them by the government. Well....no one seemed to mind when the FBI requested to speak with all men of Middle Eastern Descent between the ages of 17 and 60 in the days immediately following the attacks of September 11. THEY WERE INVITED TO BE INTERVIEWED. Those who did not follow up with the invitation certainly warranted increased scrutiny, but in most cases (in which I was involved in) they never received the communication from the FBI.

There also was initial outrage in the Arab/Arab-American communities, but all those who were interviewed admitted that they would expect the Government to do the same if another group was responsible. Most even agreed that it was THIER DUTY AS AMERICAN CITIZENS OR GUESTS OF AMERICA to participate in the investigation.

- I therefore call anyone on this board who claims to have had their constitutional rights violated by the United Sates Government to provide PROOF that this has occurred and demonstrate/articulate how you have been harmed.

Now I know the preceeding seems harsh and...well...confrontational but....This leads me to my last musing for now......

3. SO WHAT? That's all...... SO WHAT? So what if your LDS, your Training Agency etc. released your information to the government? WHAT/HOW is that going to hurt you in ANY WAY????? This is not a degradation of the social/legal state of affairs.....as someone else posted earlier....WE ARE IN A WAR!!!

What could the LDS/Training agency POSSIBLY have told the FBI about you that would hurt you in any way?

Although my musing appears Hawkish (no offense Hawk,) all Americans and I guess anyone not currently living in the Middle East (primarily) that there is in fact several wars raging on, and the people over there are fighting and dying to protect you....and the people HERE are fighting to PROTECT YOU.

4. Final musing.......If you must...I repeat MUST place blame for the relase of your information, then I would suggest that you RATIONALLY speak to your LDS or Training Agency. If you dont like thier policy on fighting terrorism within the borders of America, then I suggest you support a different shop/agency.

On a personal note....I made my feelings on this topic VERY CLEAR to my LDS and instructor friends. I expect them to cooperate FULLY with any investigation into the safety of my country. If I heard that they didnt provide forthright and immediate assisatnce, they would have lost me FOREVER as a customer.



IT IS OUR DUTY ...AS AMERICANS...AS HUMAN BEINGS
To do everything within our power to stop terror from infecting us.
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Again...these are just my musings.....I felt like telling the world about them. I can say WHATEVER I WANT because of where I live.
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Do your part to stop terror. Stop blaming the Government for every percieved problem......If they (the Government) do violate our rights, I'll be the first to hearld the cry. But by guessing and complaining without ALL the facts...we are in effect spreading the terrorism ourselves.
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Like I said....just my musings, and MY opinions. Have your own opinion, your own convictions and stand up for them.

 

[kodiak]

Have any of you heard of Mccarthyism. To me the whole deal with the FBI could lead to the same kind of witch hunts.
If an individual is welling to give up any of there rights in this country then they better be welling to give up all of them. Our govt. has been successfully taking away our rights for years.
I myself dont feel comfortable having to give this govt. anymore info about myself then I have to.
Think about it one of our rights is privacy.
And as far as me being trained to allow crime or terrorism, I am trained in martial arts, one heck of a good markmen, and so are most of the people that I know.ara:

 

[kelpmermaid]

I can't figure out how to use the quote thing right now, but I think the point about "passive toleration of a crime being committed" is rather harsh. Up until 9/11, I think the assumption was that hijackers generally wanted something in exchange for passengers and these situations generally played themselves out with most people being terrifed but going home. That has obviously changed.

As for the chartered jet, I would think that might have made someone curious or suspicious. And would a smaller aircraft have had enough fuel?

But more to the subject, I suppose that given a tip on something involving possible underwater terror activities, the FBI would be remiss in not checking on it. That would make even bigger headlines, the next tip they had that no one explored. It just sounds like they are not going about it in the most efficient way, though. Can they really drive around and visit every dive shop in America? You'd think they would have checked with the cerification agencies first, then made some specific inquiries.

 

[landlocked]

Originally posted by Windknot
Okie dokie forgive me if I ramble, these are a series of thoughts I have on this topic.

And YES, for the record....I am in Law Enforcement, ..... .... professional investigators doing thier jobs. ....Do your part to stop terror. Stop blaming the Government for every percieved problem......If they (the Government) do violate our rights, I'll be the first to hearld the cry. But by guessing and complaining without ALL the facts...we are in effect spreading the terrorism ourselves.
____________________________________________________

Like I said....just my musings, and MY opinions. Have your own opinion, your own convictions and stand up for them.

I second that thought. Nice Post and it needed to be said.

 

[ScubaStan]

Originally posted by ScubyDoo


Who was it that said "Give me Liberty, or Give Me Death"?

If I am not mistaken, the man's name was Patrick Henry.

I am all for the FBI researching all individauls that have asked for and received specialized training in ANY recreational activity, not just SCUBA or flight lessons. I would be concerned about any individuals trying to handicap our nation or our allies by intimidating us into fear. Yes, we as a nation and people must be cautious in our activities, but we must also allow our government to protect us and not hinder their efforts in doing so.

 

[Arduous]

Originally posted by rstone


Well lets play the devils-advocate then.. What if they want to Tap your phone and internet connection? What if they wanted to put up cameras on every street corner? What if they wanted to implant a microchip in your hand as a national identity card and by the way, I didnt pull that one out of a hat either as its been talked about before.

Ryan

A camera on every corner ? Those would be the safest corners in the country. A computer chip in your body ? That poor 14 year old girl that was just kidnapped yesterday would have been found in minutes ! rstone you sound like a person with something to hide.

 

[JamesK]

For my thoughts on this outrage, click on the following link.

http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10451

 

[Spectre]

Originally posted by Windknot
Well....no one seemed to mind when the FBI requested to speak with all men of Middle Eastern Descent between the ages of 17 and 60 in the days immediately following the attacks of September 11. THEY WERE INVITED TO BE INTERVIEWED.

To continue on this a little more with first hand [well, second hand] experience. My CEO [Jordanian by birth] was on a flight from Boston to LA on September 11th. He frequently has been on flight 11 [since our parent company is in LA] but he had to get out about an hour earlier to make a customer meeting that we were hosting.

When grounded in Ohio 1/2 hour after the first plane hit the WTC, he was approached by an FBI agent in riot gear w/ an M-16, and asked my CEO, in Arabic, Are you ... " by name. When he answered "yes", he was escorted to an interview room, where they had a file on him and began asking questions.

Now was he pissed off for what happened? Was he concerned about his civil liberties? No. He was comforted by the thought of how on top of things the FBI was, which was an incredible relief since he was away from his family during such horrible events.

Just a little perspective...