FBI Collecting your Information

[Se7en]

Just because I'm distant, it doesn't infer that I have perspective... but I'm going to voice an opinion anyway.
(and you know the saying - opinions are like arseholes.... everyones got one, and everyone elses stinks....)

As an outsider, it is quite interesting to see the unstated asumption that the American way of life is 'Right' and anyone who disagrees is 'Wrong'.

I find it hard to believe that America is still so naive as to believe that. Or so uneducated as to not know what the rest of the world knows;
There is no 'Right' and no 'Wrong'. What exists is the Strong, and the Weak. That's how it's always been.

At the moment, America is the Strong. That means you get to do whatever you want, to whoever you want. You want to murder innocent afganistan people, go right ahead. Countries like mine will support you, and do you want to know why?

It's not really because we necessarily think you are right, it's simply because we know you are Strong. And guess what? We want to be on the same side as the Strong, cause we know what happens to the weak.

Your country, just like mine, was founded by a bunch of people who were Strong, and killed off the Weak who previously owned the land. Neither of our countries, (nor pretty much any country anywhere) were formed by people who were 'right', and taken from people who were 'wrong'. The Strong took from the Weak.

Property is not held through any right. It is held through force, or the reasonable threat of force. No more, no less.

Bugger this, I'm off to chase some crayfish, cause I'm strong, they are weak, and they taste damm good

Mike

 

[Spectre]

Originally posted by sharpenu
If Ashcroft has all of this evidence, let's do it by the rules and prosecute Mr Padilla to the fullest extent of the law.

Ok. Here's the deal. It all comes down to secrets, and knowing when to tip your hand. Yes, they could put Padilla on trial, and they could show all the evidence they have on him. That trial, however, will be a matter of public record. They have stated that Pidilla was a small fish in a large conspiracy. Now lets assume this is true. If they have to reveal all the evidence they have, in a public forum, that can be easily extrapolated out to determine exactly _how_ the evidence was obtained. Once that is done, those methods will not be able to be used to find the others behind the conspiracy/plot.

Lets stray off for an example. In this story I'm about to make up, we've got Donny, Jimmy, Bobby, Freddy, and Johnny. There are people after Donny. Johnny gets pinched. Bobby gets pinched, Freddy gets pinched. They put all three on trial, and in the trials it is revealed that "undercover operations determined a b c and d". That is now on public record, and Donny knows that there was a mole that lead to the pinching of 3 of his top 4 guys. He then sits down and thinks... Well, Jimmy was over at Bobby's a few hours before Bobby got pinched. Freddy was over at Jimmy's waiting for Jimmy when he got pinched. Freddy got pinched outside of Jimmy's bar. Next thing you know, Jimmy gets wacked and now you gotta start from scratch trying to gather evidence to pinch Donny.

If you reveal your evidence, then puzzles can be pieced together to determine the method used for gathering this evidence. Once the methods are determined, then those methods can't be used anymore.

So heading back to Padilla. If they have a public trial, then the evidence will get out, and those at the top of the plot now know what to watch out for. If they don't know the evidence, it's harder to figure out how the evidence was obtained, and they now know what to watch out for.

 

[sharpenu]

FredT-
I don't agree that Gore/Reno would have been any better. It was Reno who authorized use of force (excessive in my opinion) at Waco and Ruby Ridge. Tipper Gore is the one who was making trouble about music and censorship. They all (Republican, Democrat or otherwise) have their agendas and must be watched.

Se7en-
True- the people with the guns make the rules. Don't believe it- ask Carthage, or Hitler, or... well you get it.

Monks- Let's not forget that Mr Padilla has RIGHTS. If we allow the government to lock people up and hold them incommunicado indefinately just by claiming national security, we will soon be in a dictatorship. Bottom line: He is an American citizen. He has the right to a trial by jury, legal representation and has the right to face his accusers and see the evidence. Anything else and we become what we despise. What would be the difference between us and Saddam or the Taliban if we allow our nation to act this way?

OK, nuff said. I'm goin diving! See ya tomorrow.