Fatality Off Miami Beach - Florida

[danvolker]

I got involved in discussing this accident via the Cave Diving thread that was about whether divers should IGNORE a diver CLEARLY not skilled enough for the environment that they are in----or in iminent peril BUT NOT asking for help....the Cave thread had many posters in it that were VEHEMENT that none of us have the RIGHT to touch or intervene on the diving of another, without that unskilled diver clearly requesting the help...this may seem unlikely and stupidly impossible for a thread like this to exist....but it does, and the proof is here....http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ad...cave-diving-pinnacle-scuba-2.html#post6652671

 

[bilsant]

I wouldn't expect to know everything when the police are done. All they will be doing is deciding whether there is probable cause to believe that the events leading to the death involved criminal negligence or deliberate action against the diver. If neither of those are established, then they are done and on to the next case.

I found this Accident/Incident thread unique in that it wasn't based on total speculation, and that people who were actually there and knew some of the people involved had something to say about what they experienced during the event.

 

[kgallowaypa]

Dan, as I understood it Kevin said he saw her dogpaddling to the buoy, (not back to the ladder of the boat). Kevin, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about that.

If a couple of the other posters that have past/previous one on one experience with Ari are credible, then Ari . . . is not credible.

---------- Post added February 26th, 2013 at 06:36 PM ----------

And if 4-5 people saw her get back on the boat, then she fell off the back of the boat. Again, this would explain why her gear was off. She didn't get her weight belt off before she fell into the water.

Long one of my concerns to see people casually standing/wandering about the boat with their weightbelts on, when not planning to immediately gear up.

this is correct, she was doggie paddling back to the line attached to the buoy heading away a from the stern of the boat, she splashed about 2 divers after I entered the water and at no point while I was on the surface did I see her return to the boat. I was actually at 17 feet below the boat and was watching above for my two buddies to come down so we can begin our dive. The victim was still holding on to the line while I observed my two buddies because she came to the line position right behind me when I decided to begin my descent. I was on the bottom waiting for my buddies for about 10 minutes until they finally submerged. For 25 minutes I was within a 30-40 foot radius of the anchor line.

 

[joh]

I don't see how any of us here should be trying to "put this" on Ari. The information that has been posted so far does not indicate this, and SPECULATING that a death was caused by Ari will likely cause problems for her with PADI....Just exactly as any of us SPECULATING that somehow the boat did something wrong, could end their business--something I don't want on me, and I doubt most of the others here want either....If we actually KNEW something we could speculate and not care about the consequences--but we don't. One of the other people on the boat told dj that the Chinese girl( who died) had gone back to the ladder, and was just holding on to it, and adjusting gear for a while.....during which time Ari and her group descended and left the area.
Maybe this is true, maybe it is conflicting with another account. The police will be the ones to determine this.
I know NOTHING about this boat, so IF I had made any suggestion before that put blame on them, I would apologize-- If I learn what happened a week from now, and think either the boat or Ari is to blame, then I will play the blame game, THEN. Not now.
Similarly, disparaging Ari for being a Nudibranch hunter is not relevant to the accident. I would also say that if ANY instructor is doing a Refresher course DIVE on a charter boat with a student, and some divers say to the student that they want to follow ( I believe this is what the surviving girl did--just tell the student that they would likely follow--they had to follow someone) , and one of this "following buddy team" ends up staying on the ladder of the dive boat while the group descends and begins it's dive, then this diver on the ladder, is not in the group--she elected OUT if it. If this storyline is true, then suggesting anything negligent about Ari, is Defamation and more important, not morally sound behavior.

If someone wants to start another thread and discuss Nudibranch hunting and collecting, I think we can all agree this is an entirely separate matter from this thread, and has no place in assignment of blame or accident analysis for what is at hand.

Thank you Dan. I am disappointed as you are at the level of speculation and personal blame that is happening on this thread. I agree that this assignment of blame (by divers who were not at the scene of the incident) is getting totally out of hand, as are the irrelevant mentions of other dives involving Ari that in fact have nothing to do with what took place last weekend.

As a personal note, I know Ari and have dived with her over the past few years. I've always found her to be a conscientious diver. There were a couple times where I had equipment problems and she was willing to exchange equipment with me, another time when I had a total BC failure, and had to jettison weight pockets, and she spent a lot of time to try and recover them for me. I've known other fellow divers who dive with her group regularly, and have never heard any negativity such as what was said above.

As I understand this from the reports and articles I have read, the incident very likely was a result of lack of training, and little to no communication between the lost diver and her buddy (the individual diver to whom she was assigned to buddy with on the boat), leading to a tragic situation that could have been prevented with training, clear signals and awareness. Please take a step back, a deep breath and let the investigation be completed before casting aspersions on any fellow divers.

 

[kgallowaypa]

kgallowaypa, thank you for your heroic efforts to resuscitate the victim. It's a real shame that events unfolded as they did, but perhaps we can learn some hard lessons from the incident.

I do have a couple of questions, though, related to these comments you made earlier:


What suspicion beforehand did a group of guys have that you later found out about? Is there some question as to whether the victim was a certified diver?

When we finally anchored, the captain briefed everyone on the location and the time to return back to the boat. After this time people began splashing in the water. From the time we set the anchor and the time I splashed in the water, it was about 7 minutes. I was seated in the boat starboard side closest to the bow of the boat so I should of been the last diver to enter but since I was geared up I walked to the front and entered as perhaps the 6th or 7th out of 25 divers on the boat. After I was in the water, another diver went after me and then went the victim. The DIVEMASTER and 2 other crew members were at the transom of the boat assisting divers enter the water and making sure we acknowledged that we were ok via signaling. The DIVEMASTER and crew members should of seen the panic in the victim when she doggie paddled back to the line, ignored instructions to place her mask and regulator in her mouth, and should of paid closer attention to her. I don't know where ARI was during this time but I do know that there should of been a HUGE red flag going on to the other divers especially the DIVEMASTER and/or the other crew members when she did not acknowledge that she was ok and swam straight for the line, mind you, in no current and very calm seas. In hindsight I should of said something but I figured that someone already on the boat would of seen this incident because it happened a few feet from the transom and that they were trying to bring her back on and ask questions. This is the only guilt I have for not saying something myself but nobody expected the following events to get out of hand, it seemed more to me like typical student panic with their first real ocean water checkout dive.

As far as her certification, her Asian friend that spoke English was assembling her BC FOR HER and adjusting straps when she stood up ready to enter the water. Also when asked while underway about her certification cards to the Asian friend (in reference to both the victim and the Asian friend) they states they did not have them. Now have them on them or have cards at all is up to discussion and confirmation but this is what I recalled specifically because it caused commotion I was getting bothered by while I was trying to listen to the dive briefing when we were underway.

 

[danvolker]

When we finally anchored, the captain briefed everyone on the location and the time to return back to the boat. After this time people began splashing in the water. From the time we set the anchor and the time I splashed in the water, it was about 7 minutes. I was seated in the boat starboard side closest to the bow of the boat so I should of been the last diver to enter but since I was geared up I walked to the front and entered as perhaps the 6th or 7th out of 25 divers on the boat. After I was in the water, another diver went after me and then went the victim. The DIVEMASTER and 2 other crew members were at the transom of the boat assisting divers enter the water and making sure we acknowledged that we were ok via signaling. The DIVEMASTER and crew members should of seen the panic in the victim when she doggie paddled back to the line, ignored instructions to place her mask and regulator in her mouth, and should of paid closer attention to her. I don't know where ARI was during this time but I do know that there should of been a HUGE red flag going on to the other divers especially the DIVEMASTER and/or the other crew members when she did not acknowledge that she was ok and swam straight for the line, mind you, in no current and very calm seas.

As far as her certification, her Asian friend that spoke English was assembling her BC FOR HER and adjusting straps when she stood up ready to enter the water. Also when asked while underway about her certification cards to the Asian friend (in reference to both the victim and the Asian friend) they states they did not have them. Now have them on them or have cards at all is up to discussion and confirmation but this is what I recalled specifically because it caused commotion I was getting bothered by while I was trying to listen to the dive briefing when we were underway.

And this goes to the point I was getting at in the Cave thread..... How does everyone here feel about what each diver in the water that could have SEEN this girl on the surface, could do? Would it have been right or wrong, to have swam up to her, grabber her, and dragged her to the boat, and told the DM she should not be in the ocean??? Or would this have been vastly overstepping the behaviors any of us are allowed to engage in?

I think many would believe that they would not have the right to intervene.

When I see this type of thing, my typical choice is to either watch them like a baby sitter just in case, or to try to get them back to the boat by communicating with them--but this means my dive is going to be ruined.....it is not so big a deal for me, because I do not typically pay when I am on Charter boats--whereas it is a major negative for most divers to entirely give up a dive they "don't have to". Some people would accuse me of being a Dive Nazi for this( or as me seeing myself as some self ordained Dive Police) , for suggesting that a novice should not be in the ocean in the manner they had been...

My best solution for being in this situation, is to NEVER be on a boat with a bunch of unskilled divers...... 99% of the time, this has worked for me 1% of the time, I lose a dive :-(

 

[Beiji]

And this goes to the point I was getting at in the Cave thread..... How does everyone here feel about what each diver in the water that could have SEEN this girl on the surface, could do? Would it have been right or wrong, to have swam up to her, grabber her, and dragged her to the boat, and told the DM she should not be in the ocean??? Or would this have been vastly overstepping the behaviors any of us are allowed to engage in?

I think many would believe that they would not have the right to intervene. [snip]

What's the worst that could happen if you intervene on the boat? Someone becomes offended or angry. What's the worst that could happen if you don't intervene?

It takes courage to intervene and to get past those thoughts of "It's none of my business. Everything will be fine." There are times when I have pointed things out to people, but I am far from being as assertive as I should be, even with my own buddies. When it comes to strangers, I am cowed by my relative inexperience and keep my mouth shut most of the time.

On another thread someone said that his attitude toward other divers is "I am my brother's keeper." That idea resonated with me.

 

[Herb-alaska]

Dan I think if you simply assist the diver back to the boat brief the person in charge of what you saw with out stating any opinion on the divers qualification then you are not overstepping anything. The trouble starts when you give opinion not fact If I went to help a diver I would hover near by but I would not intervene until asked for help or the person was beyond the ability to ask. I personally would count it as one of my best dives to be able to rescue or assist a distressed diver If the diver won't accept help but won't move from the situation the I would pass the issue off to a paid staff member directly and wait for confirmation that they had accepted responsibility for dealing with the situation

 

[divingpyrate]

My best solution for being in this situation, is to NEVER be on a boat with a bunch of unskilled divers...... 99% of the time, this has worked for me 1% of the time, I lose a dive :-(

So your solution is leave the unskilled out their to deal with it.
In most any other sport or life endeavor there is a practice called mentoring.

Why is it that people with skill in diving just forget they were once new divers and the heck with these people.

Nice

 

[peterbj7]

A general comment, made from the perspective of general humanity and not a narrow interpretation of USA law. I am not an American, and find alleged custom in the USA (as apparently dictated by law) to be perverse.

When I am in the water I have responsibilities as an instructor, even when I'm not actively instructing. Which means that if I see something that is actually or potentially dangerous, I feel I must stop and observe and if necessary intervene. I don't intervene when it's just a question of style, but if something dangerous is happening I can't ignore it. I know American instructors who say exactly the opposite, possibly because they're used to a culture of blame and lawsuits. I have been party to saving lives on several occasions when I wasn't technically "involved".

On this specific incident, I commented above that what had supposedly happened had been a severe breach of any recognised standards. It was alleged early on that the instructor concerned was concerning herself with photography and other naturalist activities during a course dive with her student. If that is in fact what happened then that behaviour would breach the standards of every agency I teach for, and given that a death occurred would also become a matter for the police. But that is only if what was alleged did in fact happen.

A gripe on linguistics. Am I the only person here on whom the constant inappropriate use of "of" grates? For example, "I should of done..." is quite wrong. The abbreviation is "I should've done..." and that is what most of us say, but the long non-contracted form is "I should have done...". The word "of" has no part. Gripe over.