Fatality off Bald Head Island - NC
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aHeavyD
Contributor
TO my good friend Don Zantop. This is for you
The answer to the mix is here,
Don would have wanted to state it. He loved playing with numbers and was very good at it. So this is for Don
1). Depth was stated in report
2). Ppo2 was 1.29 based on the depth I stated
3). The EAD was 62 feet,
4). Now you know the mix
5). His CNS was 29% based on his bottom time alone; you should not exceed 85% per dive.
6). His OTU’s were 102.2 based on his bottom time alone; you should not exceed 850 per 24 hours.
The answer to the mix is here,
Don would have wanted to state it. He loved playing with numbers and was very good at it. So this is for Don
1). Depth was stated in report
2). Ppo2 was 1.29 based on the depth I stated
3). The EAD was 62 feet,
4). Now you know the mix
5). His CNS was 29% based on his bottom time alone; you should not exceed 85% per dive.
6). His OTU’s were 102.2 based on his bottom time alone; you should not exceed 850 per 24 hours.
You know, I wasn't going to reply to this thread anymore, and am pretty sure this will be the last time I read it. AheavyD, ahava and myself originally posted on this thread so that wild rumours, speculation and wild ass guessing would be held to a minimum. All three of us were with Don on this dive, witnessed all the observations and actions that were taken before during and after the incident. We have tried to present a complete picture of what happened so that people could learn from this incident rather than try to "fix the blame". Dave did everything he could to save Don's life and get him to the surface, when he saw Don was having a problem. He described what he saw and what he did as did I and ahava, but some people have jumped on a single phrase, sentence, a typo or a mis-terminolgy to hijack this thread into "they must be hiding something".
I'm not sure why, but unless you know all the facts and circumstances, wild theories have no place here. We have said on multiple occasions that the dive was well planned, gases were within limits, depths and times were planned and the divers involved were all qualified to do the dive. We're all in middle age and the group dives conservativly at all times. We had all done the dives on multiple occassions and were well aware of all the hazards and risks. Dave put his initial posting on this board within days of the incident and was still in a state of shock as to the entire incident. Give him a break if he used the word "octo" rather than 2nd stage. We all make spelling mistakes at times. If you are a trained Nitrox diver never mind a tech diver you can easily work out the mix from information provided by the 3 of us. If your not then it wouldn't mean anything to you anyway.
None of us came on here to be interrogated by anyone. No one but the USCG or Don's family has the right to ask us for anything more than we have chosen to give here, never mind Demand it. We have provided the information we felt pertinant to this incident and applicable to be posted in a public forum.
Yes, we have debriefed this among ourselves and Don's technical instructors, and have found nothing we believe could have prevented this incident other than Don never getting on the boat that day. We have all played back this day multiple times and discussed it among ourselves. If we had found anything we would have made that information availble.
Yes , I made a posting on another thread with my conclusions that Amy was not ready for her dive based on information that a first hand witness provided. I did not demand more information from the witness and am grateful for what she felt appropriate to give. I made several conclusions/observations based on that information and some other information posted in the thread. I haven't seen anything to make me change my mind, based on any susequent post in that thread. I don't think I was speculating on what caused her death, but was instead methodically listing the reasons I believe Amy"s incident and death occured. I have not speculated on her cause of death as I don't know what it was. I did speak to the chain of events which to my eyes directly lead up to her having an incident. If someone can offer information disproving any of my conclusions I would be happy to listen to them. I believe that a lot can be taken away from the circumstances of that incident by anyone diving, especially new divers, primarily get the training and experience and be equipped with the proper gear and equipment before getting yourself into something your not prepared for. That's exactly what Amy did and for pointing it out I was called hypocritical. If Don had been doing something he was unprepared for, outside his training or beyond well established limits I would have pointed that out too, but try as I can, I have not been able to find anything.
I guess at this time the best I can take away from Don's death is to always dive with people I can trust to do whatever they can to assist me and point out anything I'm doing that might endanger myself or them on the dive. Maybe that sentence in my tech book about how even when everything goes right on the dive, there is still a risk of serious injury or death has new meaning to me today.
I'm not sure why, but unless you know all the facts and circumstances, wild theories have no place here. We have said on multiple occasions that the dive was well planned, gases were within limits, depths and times were planned and the divers involved were all qualified to do the dive. We're all in middle age and the group dives conservativly at all times. We had all done the dives on multiple occassions and were well aware of all the hazards and risks. Dave put his initial posting on this board within days of the incident and was still in a state of shock as to the entire incident. Give him a break if he used the word "octo" rather than 2nd stage. We all make spelling mistakes at times. If you are a trained Nitrox diver never mind a tech diver you can easily work out the mix from information provided by the 3 of us. If your not then it wouldn't mean anything to you anyway.
None of us came on here to be interrogated by anyone. No one but the USCG or Don's family has the right to ask us for anything more than we have chosen to give here, never mind Demand it. We have provided the information we felt pertinant to this incident and applicable to be posted in a public forum.
Yes, we have debriefed this among ourselves and Don's technical instructors, and have found nothing we believe could have prevented this incident other than Don never getting on the boat that day. We have all played back this day multiple times and discussed it among ourselves. If we had found anything we would have made that information availble.
Yes , I made a posting on another thread with my conclusions that Amy was not ready for her dive based on information that a first hand witness provided. I did not demand more information from the witness and am grateful for what she felt appropriate to give. I made several conclusions/observations based on that information and some other information posted in the thread. I haven't seen anything to make me change my mind, based on any susequent post in that thread. I don't think I was speculating on what caused her death, but was instead methodically listing the reasons I believe Amy"s incident and death occured. I have not speculated on her cause of death as I don't know what it was. I did speak to the chain of events which to my eyes directly lead up to her having an incident. If someone can offer information disproving any of my conclusions I would be happy to listen to them. I believe that a lot can be taken away from the circumstances of that incident by anyone diving, especially new divers, primarily get the training and experience and be equipped with the proper gear and equipment before getting yourself into something your not prepared for. That's exactly what Amy did and for pointing it out I was called hypocritical. If Don had been doing something he was unprepared for, outside his training or beyond well established limits I would have pointed that out too, but try as I can, I have not been able to find anything.
I guess at this time the best I can take away from Don's death is to always dive with people I can trust to do whatever they can to assist me and point out anything I'm doing that might endanger myself or them on the dive. Maybe that sentence in my tech book about how even when everything goes right on the dive, there is still a risk of serious injury or death has new meaning to me today.
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bankyf
Contributor
Sorry, what I should have said was Non-scuba drowning victims will aspirate the bloody foam as well. I have personally performed CPR on several non-diving drowning victims with bloody foam. Cleaning that up out of the back of an ambulance is an experience you don't forget.
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However, I insist that the "purging of the regulator into the mouth" MAY have a lot more to do with this than you think. The diving community does NOT have a good knowledge base of Immersion Pulmonary Edema (IPE), and maybe that is why people seem to drown with no known reason.
Full info here: Divers Alert Network
DenniseGG, on this board, experience IPE, and she did what Don did. She was at least able to get out of the water, and was also fortunate to survive until she was placed on a CPAP.
As DAN Members you know that DAN continuously gathers data on dive injuries. A small, but growing, number of cases reported to DAN involves what was traditionally considered a fairly rare condition.
It’s called immersion pulmonary edema (IPE), or pulmonary edema of diving. When this occurs, a diver or surface swimmer experiences an accumulation of fluid in the lungs.
The number of IPE cases has increased. Why the increase is unclear. The condition itself is not clearly understood, but since it is occurring more frequently, divers should know about it. Jax note - maybe the number is not increasing, but the recognition of it and the proper diagnosis of it is increasing.
How does it feel?
Symptoms include shortness of breath or the sensation of not getting enough air while at depth, often after only a few minutes in the water. Typically the symptoms start before ascent.
As divers with this condition ascend, they experience no improvement. In fact, they usually cough up pink, frothy sputum: Such fluid in the lungs can reduce the amount of oxygen reaching the blood. The diver may have noisy breathing that can be heard without a stethoscope. The condition usually occurs after only a few minutes in the water at a shallow depth, so it is not usually confused with cardiorespiratory decompression sickness (or “chokes”. Chest pain is usually absent, unless the condition is due to a heart attack. If the diver lacks sufficient amounts of oxygen, he or she may exhibit confusion or loss of consciousness.
Full info here: Divers Alert Network
DenniseGG, on this board, experience IPE, and she did what Don did. She was at least able to get out of the water, and was also fortunate to survive until she was placed on a CPAP.
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DevonDiver
N/A
A ScubaBoard Staff Message...
I would suggest that general-topic medical issues, which may off-shoot from the actual incident discussion, be raised as a discussion point within a more relevant forum. i.e. The Diving Medicine forum. At that location, you will attract the input of qualified diving medicine and hyperbaric practitioners, who will undoubtedly provide a definitive answer to the debated points.
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Thanks for the details. I am not qualified for much here, but anyone with a Nitrox card would have to wonder why anyone else would suspect OxTox - much less use words like "obviously."
Jax's suspicions on IPE seem more likely, one of those scarey wild cards in diving that we can't anticipated - more under the Caca Happens" umbrella. Certainly looks like a conservative dive planned and executed by experienced divers with no reason to expect problems.
When you add to the uncertainies of IPE the fact that Navy SEALs, in surface swims, have contracted IPE in one lung, because it was the side they were swimming on . . .
In our discussions in the USC Emergency Response Diver course, talking to the Baywatch paramedics, (I was thinking of DeniseGG) I asked if, given the foamy-froth and perhaps no bag to force air, (and no CPAP) would having the rescue breather breath 100% O2, and then force the air into the person, do any better than just a mask?
Caveated of course, that they were not doctors, they both thought that it would be at least more beneficial than just a mask. The person is drowning in their own fluids, and if someone could overcome queasiness and force oxygenated air down a victim's air passage, they may just get enough O2 to survive as the victim expels the fluid.
I think, if someone is dying / died in front of me, I could be that strong. I pray God that I am.
In our discussions in the USC Emergency Response Diver course, talking to the Baywatch paramedics, (I was thinking of DeniseGG) I asked if, given the foamy-froth and perhaps no bag to force air, (and no CPAP) would having the rescue breather breath 100% O2, and then force the air into the person, do any better than just a mask?
Caveated of course, that they were not doctors, they both thought that it would be at least more beneficial than just a mask. The person is drowning in their own fluids, and if someone could overcome queasiness and force oxygenated air down a victim's air passage, they may just get enough O2 to survive as the victim expels the fluid.
I think, if someone is dying / died in front of me, I could be that strong. I pray God that I am.
Oxtox is much like decompression programs, it is all in theory. Some divers get bent for no reason or very minor time extensions. There are no set rules but just guidelines. Notice it says "to which the body is normally exposed". While we have guidelines that work for the majority and are accepted, each year the brains who produce this stuff often second guess their original guidelines. From the beginning the acceptable ppo of oxygen as been lowered and lowered. Ones own body state can raise there risk factor to DCS and Oxtox. Diving is not a cut and dry science.
Causes
Oxygen toxicity is caused by exposure to oxygen at partial pressures greater than those to which the body is normally exposed. This occurs in three principal settings: underwater diving, hyperbaric oxygen therapy and the provision of supplemental oxygen, particularly to premature infants. In each case, the risk factors are markedly different.
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